gavin18787
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Registered: 22nd Feb 05
Location: Basildon, Essex
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As this forum always provides an interesting debate on subjects as of late, opinions.....
Personally yes there is definitely a problem in the USA. You only have to see some of the clips in the media to show two very different mind sets living side by side. Then you have a man in charge that appears to only fan the flames and turn a blind eye to any problems 
However now protests have started across other countries I am not so sure how beneficial this is especially during the current COVID19 pandemic. I am not going to deny there may be an underlying problem worldwide but as soon as things get out of hand with clashes with police and looting/crime etc from people seeking advantage from the protests and tagging along the message gets lost and it may enforce the beliefs of others.
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
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These demonstrations in this country are to my mind are complete horseshit. Achieve nothing except to massage the solidarity ego of anyone supporting it. As a privileged white person surely it is me who is to be convinced to change my actions, its about the only thing I'm allowed to have a view on, but I won't be acting any differently because loads of people walked down a road.
Then you have the fact it undermines any attempts to control the virus.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Government organised them, that's how absurd the whole thing is.
- gives the Government an excellent scapegoat when the inevitable second wave comes.
- creates further division and blame by the general population including I suspect most white people who now can just say black people caused the second wave.
- removes the need for the Government to get to the bottom of why the virus disproportionately kills BAME. Rather than it being about socio-economic factors or any link with deprivation or poverty, shit jobs, housing, anything which is the Government's job, they can now just say they marched which is why they all died.
- economically better if we don't go spend money in Spain or Greece on holiday because they ban UK residents from travel.
- yet more blame and division for the above.
- big corporations can get behind it on a moral basis and its such a vague cause "black lives matter" that you don't need to then say "black lives are given shit jobs which disproportionately cause them to be customer facing and thus more vulnerable" or any other such specific complaint which isn't just a vague load of shit about nothing that points the finger nowhere.
Probably more stuff which will come to me but in summary what a load of horseshit, does not help the cause one bit. I would argue harms it.
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Fonz
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Registered: 12th May 06
Location: Newbury, Berks
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
These demonstrations in this country are to my mind are complete horseshit. Achieve nothing except to massage the solidarity ego of anyone supporting it. As a privileged white person surely it is me who is to be convinced to change my actions, its about the only thing I'm allowed to have a view on, but I won't be acting any differently because loads of people walked down a road.
this, this and this a hundred times more.
although I don't have the answers, I am not sure what the benefit of the protest is - this isn't against the UK Government, or a individual business or industry (take University fees or the cost of train travel, or global warming/Greta marches as examples of those)
what is being protested is the problem the population has to deal with - it isn't a case of knocking the doors of CEOs/Prime Minsters to get them to change or enforce a new policy but on an individual level - everyone needs to change.
now by "everyone" i don't necessarily mean all 66 million in the UK - but if you went to a pub (post-lockdown) guaranteed there will be one person in there within the week whole could be considered racist, however mild.
that individual needs converting.
then the next pub, they need visiting, and the group there need to change their mind.
then once the pubs are done, go to the football stadiums, and do the same.
(I am not trying to brandish football fans or pub drinkers as out and out racists - but hopefully you get what I am saying)
imo the only real issue the Govt can do in reaction is to clamp down harder (be it fines, prison time or other) on racist acts however small.
if you swap the words "racism" with "domestic abuse" or "sexism" i feel we're looking at the same problem
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DaveyLC
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Location: Berkshire
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quote:
Originally posted by Fonz
if you swap the words "racism" with "domestic abuse" or "sexism" i feel we're looking at the same problem
I strongly disagree with that sentiment, the issue is the institutional racism in society - yeah its no where near as bad here as it is in the states but its still an issue. People are tripping over themselves to defend the statues of characters like Edward Colston suggesting that while he was openly racist he was still a Philanthropist but you don't hear anyone defending Jimmy Savile for being dirty old paedo just because he gave loads of money to charity? There is no place in our society for either!
I (and many millions of white British & American people) have never and will never experience the sort of oppression that can only be appreciated by somebody of a minority background/race.
WE cannot even begin to comprehend how demeaning it must feel to know there are people who genuinely believe you are worthless because you happen to have a different skin colour.
WE should never attempt rationalise how that abuse must make it’s victims feel.
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gavin18787
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Registered: 22nd Feb 05
Location: Basildon, Essex
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I think I agree that it is purely an educating thing that would need doing on an individual basis. Protests are not going to get anywhere and if anything will just re-enforce the opinion that racist people may have....
Had an interesting discussion today at work with a colleague that is classed as BAME regarding a statement that was sent out by the hospitals chief executive regarding the current on goings regarding black lives matter etc. Now the statement basically read that they acknowledged that they have no diversity at top board level and are going to ensure that they appoint someone from a BAME background going forwards.
No this we agreed on was not really that comforting as they are then employing someone on their ethnic background rather then their merits for the job. Which he agreed he would then feel like he was been employed to tick a box and not on his skill set. He has also worked there for many years the same as myself and has never felt there were any inequality issues revolving in the background and they were purely highlighting matters that were not really an issue and in turn making a problem out of nothing. I mean the trust as a whole is probably one of the most ethnic diverse places you could wish to see....
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
I have never and will never experience the sort of oppression that can only be appreciated by somebody of a minority background/race.
WE cannot even begin to comprehend how demeaning it must feel to know there are people who genuinely believe you are worthless because you happen to have a different skin colour.
The above is interesting to me, on the one hand you have never experienced it, yet you seem qualified to talk about how demeaning it is or how worthless you are.
I see this a lot - white people who both say they can't appreciate how bad it is - but then go on to say how bad it is.
I can't empathise either but I also wouldn't go on to put words in to the mouth of anyone. I appreciate that a lot of this 'its so bad' narrative is acquired knowledge and you're passing on what your have heard first hand. But the danger is that some of it gets ramped up such that it gains more gravity as it gets passed along. And eventually that becomes the new truth even though that wasn't what people originally said.
Not sure if I've posted this before and I will state that I can't vouch for its editorial integrity but it would appear that a load of white people have a view of black people being oppressed and disadvantaged, but actually the black people are all fine and will manage just fine as functional citizens - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs
That's not to discount all of it but certainly I view it as dangerous that a lot of this narrative is second, third, fourth hand and it does amplify as it passes on.
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
People are tripping over themselves to defend ... characters like Edward Colston
I'm not sure this is true.
My objection is that the process for tearing down a statue is currently assemble a mob and hack it down. Or merely vandalise it, or cow city councils, universities or whoever in to removing it for fear of being branded racist through inaction.
You wouldn't undertake any other planning process by mob or this type of pressure and its a dangerous path for me that it succeeds so easily. There's a grave danger that the vocal mob with their righteous cause usurp the wishes of what stands to be a far larger body of feeling, simply because the people sitting at home thinking its ridiculous are not out there campaigning for stuff to stay.
As soon as something becomes fashionable you're on to a loser, I did watch soon after the one in Bristol came down many other councils and universities tripping over themselves to do the right thing and raze any undesirable artefacts in quick time before the mob came for them. All very spineless and none of it done from a position of reason.
You'd also have to flatten half of Liverpool if you wanted to get rid of any trace of slave trading, half the streets are named after the wealthy traders who built a great many of the old buildings. You'd be left with no heritage whatsoever. And for what? Because the removal of history makes things OK? Or because black people don't want to walk down Rodney Street or Bold Street? Not sure anyone gave a shit before it became fashionable, nor whether it addresses any specific issues than any specific black person faces in the world today. Again - same issue as these BLM marches - what are they actually achieving that betters peoples' lives? Very little.
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by gavin18787
they acknowledged that they have no diversity at top board level and are going to ensure that they appoint someone from a BAME background going forwards.
...
he would then feel like he was been employed to tick a box and not on his skill set.
No wonder we're using words like demeaning and worthless if the top jobs are being given away to tick a box. I'd feel worthless if I got given a job for any other reason than merit. Its complete horseshit.
quote:
Originally posted by gavin18787
He has also worked there for many years the same as myself and has never felt there were any inequality issues
But no doubt lots of people speaking for him telling him how bad everything else. When actually the horseshit attempt at making him feel better just makes him feel worse.
What a load of utter horseshit. It would be nice if your friend made his views more widely known as apparently white people can't say it because they can't empathise or some shit. So it needs actual BAME people to come out say that's a load of wank. I hope they do because this horseshit cannot continue like this.
[Edited on 12-06-2020 by Ian]
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gavin18787
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Registered: 22nd Feb 05
Location: Basildon, Essex
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Well he is a consultant at the hospital and has done loads of work and campaigns on various things like patient saftey and dr working conditions in the past. I am pretty sure he will put his opinion accross. He is a sensible man so will know how to approach the point and not just stir up problems on social media etc....
Also on the subject of social media I am sure alot of people are only involved so they can give themselves a moral pat on the back and show the pictures online to prove they arnt a racist.
Kind of like the hospital distributing rainbow nhs pin badges to show we arnt homaphobes  personally as long as I know in my own mind I am not a racist/homaphobe etc etc why do I need to wear a badge to bring attention to things. Should just be a given.
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gavin18787
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Registered: 22nd Feb 05
Location: Basildon, Essex
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Ps Ian
You spoke too soon about Liverpool
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-52992669?SThisFB
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by gavin18787
I am sure alot of people are only involved so they can give themselves a moral pat on the back and show the pictures online to prove they arnt a racist.
Kind of like the hospital distributing rainbow nhs pin badges to show we arnt homaphobes personally as long as I know in my own mind I am not a racist/homaphobe etc etc why do I need to wear a badge to bring attention to things. Should just be a given.
Absolutely this.
Far too much self-congratulation about how much people are doing, how much they're going to change and get it right, where have these people been all their own lives if this is all new.
As someone who isn't a racist and has never been one I find it fucking bonkers that it should need such a wank fest now about how we're all going to do so much.
Facebook takes the piss, I found myself replying this morning to the fucking National Railway Museum because they're apparently going to do more to get it right, the fucking Railway Museum!! Load of shit and I'm apparently a racist because I told them it was a load of shit.
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by gavin18787
Ps Ian
You spoke too soon about Liverpool
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-52992669?SThisFB
Piss take, hopefully it won't gain much traction but lets see. The city will be a completely different place if these vandalising cunts get their way.
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gavin18787
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Registered: 22nd Feb 05
Location: Basildon, Essex
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Yer I saw that by the NRM
Not sure really what the issue there was. History is history and should just be accurately recorded and accessible to all.
We going to start getting upset because all the railway pioneers like Stephenson, Brunel, Gresley were all white and well educated
[Edited on 13-06-2020 by gavin18787]
[Edited on 13-06-2020 by gavin18787]
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3CorsaMeal
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Registered: 11th Apr 02
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I treat everyone as if they were black anyway, so all this carry on doesn't really bother me.
[Edited on 18-06-2020 by 3CorsaMeal]
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SetH
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Registered: 15th Jul 01
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quote:
Originally posted by 3CorsaMeal
I treat everyone as if they were black anyway, so all this carry on doesn't really bother me.
[Edited on 18-06-2020 by 3CorsaMeal]
FPMSL best thing I've heard in weeks
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evilrob
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Registered: 16th Mar 12
Location: Your mum's house
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quote:
Originally posted by 3CorsaMeal
I treat everyone as if they were black anyway, so all this carry on doesn't really bother me.
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SetH
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Registered: 15th Jul 01
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I had some giant fat udder monster message me the other night. She said she wanted to take my 'black cum' in her 'dirty white pussy' (true story). However I feel racially abused and I am going to kick of and go on a BLM protest 
Although I did the maths and calculated the UDDER:GUT ratio and the math did not add up so its a No.
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Fonz
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Registered: 12th May 06
Location: Newbury, Berks
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
the issue is the institutional racism in society
i don't disagree
but there is also an institutional societal problem regarding sexism or domestic abuse...
...for some they see it as "ok" or "the norm" - much like racism.
i don't know how to answer the question "how does it get solved?" but everyone needs to change their view point and although i can't say i recognise anyone in the CS community as "racist" there is probably someone in my street, or the next one along who has very racist attitudes which will be very difficult to change.
the leaps in gender equality has been rapid in comparison to racism - in a generation maybe two, we've gone from a woman's place is at home looking after the house, the kids and her husband to being an equal in society - even if there is still work to be done in terms of equal salaries.
the same progress hasn't occured with regards race equality and the reasons why are large and complex....
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Jake
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Registered: 24th Jan 05
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Ian touched on this. I worked for a retired police sergeant and he said everything has gone absolutely mad. Job roles were being given to fulfill quotas instead of picking the most suitable candidate. For example he said women were interested in being dog handlers yet they couldn't complete the physical course or handle the big alsatian - what they did was make the course easier and give them a slightly smaller dog to deal with. They passed the course but were unable to deal with the real world experience. Theres a running joke that you have to be a gay black transexual to be a fire fighter these days.
Is it fair that there aren't many white people in the 100 meter finals?
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SetH
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Registered: 15th Jul 01
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quote:
Originally posted by Fonz
quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
the issue is the institutional racism in society
the leaps in gender equality has been rapid in comparison to racism - in a generation maybe two, we've gone from a woman's place is at home looking after the house, the kids and her husband to being an equal in society - even if there is still work to be done in terms of equal salaries.
And look how that turned out for society, but that is a whole new thread
My comment may be dismissed though as I will not elaborate, done it to death on social media and actually had many women agreeing with me but meh.
As for racism, will always be there, just how opposing religious wars have been waged since the dawn of mankind. will always be an us and them attitude across various races, creeds, classes unless humanity becomes united (unlikely unless we get invaded by aliens).
[Edited on 23-06-2020 by SetH]
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SetH
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Registered: 15th Jul 01
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake
Ian touched on this. I worked for a retired police sergeant and he said everything has gone absolutely mad. Job roles were being given to fulfill quotas instead of picking the most suitable candidate. For example he said women were interested in being dog handlers yet they couldn't complete the physical course or handle the big alsatian - what they did was make the course easier and give them a slightly smaller dog to deal with. They passed the course but were unable to deal with the real world experience. Theres a running joke that you have to be a gay black transexual to be a fire fighter these days.
Is it fair that there aren't many white people in the 100 meter finals?
+1
Just when we thought PC could not get any worse, recent events will fuel the fire with fucking naplam.
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by Fonz
some they see it as "ok" or "the norm" - much like racism.
"Some"
My question would be where.
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by Fonz
even if there is still work to be done in terms of equal salaries.
No there's not, that's horseshit and people need to stop saying it.
If women are cheaper every business in the world would exclusively employ women.
Its bollocks.
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DaveyLC
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Registered: 8th Oct 08
Location: Berkshire
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Its remarkably easy to dismiss racism, sexism or homophobia when you're a white, straight male.
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SetH
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Registered: 15th Jul 01
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
Its remarkably easy to dismiss racism, sexism or homophobia when you're a white, straight male.
I am a negro that has bummed lady boys though sir.
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