nuttytart1000
Member
Registered: 6th Sep 03
Location: somewhere in wigan area lashed up in a gutter
User status: Offline
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got done doing 45mph on camera any ways round it ... been told to fill it in but not sign it as it won't be processed anyone got any other ideas
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DAYZEE
Member
Registered: 13th Nov 00
Location: Stevenage, MR2 Turbo, 328i Coupe, CBR600F
User status: Offline
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Your fucked. Sign it, don't make a fuss and be more careful in future.
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Rob
Member
Registered: 9th Jul 01
Location: hull
User status: Offline
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u broke the law, face up to it 
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a_j_mair
Member
Registered: 23rd Jan 04
Location: Scotland
User status: Offline
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not signing it used to work but not so sure now. give it a try but just slow down or buy road angel 
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Drew
Banned
Registered: 24th Nov 01
Location: County Durham
User status: Offline
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dont speed
if ya do - dont get caught - simple
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nuttytart1000
Member
Registered: 6th Sep 03
Location: somewhere in wigan area lashed up in a gutter
User status: Offline
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great advice guys lol
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Drew
Banned
Registered: 24th Nov 01
Location: County Durham
User status: Offline
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grrr - cant stand people who moan about speeding tickets and parking tickets etc
ive been clamped - got a speeding fine, just paid them and took the points, both cases were completely my fault, and i admit is, so why try to 'get out of it' Also the dude moaning cause he got a producer - geeez
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DAYZEE
Member
Registered: 13th Nov 00
Location: Stevenage, MR2 Turbo, 328i Coupe, CBR600F
User status: Offline
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If you have the time and money to try and fight the government over a £60 fine then be my guest. But the best advise is don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
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nuttytart1000
Member
Registered: 6th Sep 03
Location: somewhere in wigan area lashed up in a gutter
User status: Offline
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right well looks like ill just have to take the rap for it n slow down
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vibrio
Banned
Registered: 28th Feb 01
Location: POAH
User status: Offline
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Loophole in Section 172 Loophole, not signing the NIP form?
A loophole does appear to exist, but it is not 100% foolproof as much of the law around the loophole is somewhat cloudy and untried. Section 172 Loophole. This loophole is based upon returning your NIP paperwork unsigned. It is not as straightforward as just returning it unsigned and whilst recent court cases have clarified some parts, they have also clouded others. In summary the situation is (January 2004):
If you return your form unsigned then as you have not signed the documents its contents are not considered a "statement in writing" for the purposes of Section 12 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988. Accordingly it is inadmissible as evidence under the Road Traffic Offenders Act.
BUT
If the form was completed by the defendant then it could amount to a confession under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE). This has been tested in a number of cases and been thrown out. In Bristol Crown court (Case # A20020257) on 13th December 2002 the case against John Pickford was dropped as the court concluded that as the form was unsigned it could not be taken as a confession as there was no evidence that the defendant had made it. Judge Ticehurst then went on to famously describe the situation as a lacuna in the law and that parliament will need to update the law.
SO to you will need to get someone else to complete the form for you on your behalf. This will need to be someone who can't be called to give evidence against you - so your solicitor or your spouse. You should not give them specific advice on how the form should be completed, other than asking them to ensure the legal requirements are complied with. And don't sign the form. This approach has worked in the past in a number of high profile "celebrity" cases. The person who completes the form should write a brief note explaining that they have filled out the form on your behalf acting as your agent. They should retain this note as it will be needed by you if the case goes to court.
It is highly likely that you will then receive an aggressive letter in response to your unsigned form. It is almost certain that they will refer to a ruling in a case DPP vs Broomfield 2002 and claim that this case confirmed that you must return the form completed and signed. You can read full details of this case here
We would suggest that you write back to them and point out a few key facts and ask them for clarification.
In DPP v Broomfield, Judge Wilkie concluded that a Police "Authority could include reasonable instructions as to the manner in which information was to be provided" in relation to Section 172 and that this could include written information. Judge Wilkie did not state that written information should be signed.
On the 13th December 2002 at Bristol Crown Court in the case of DPP v Pickford, Judge Ticehurst stated that a lacuna in the law does exist.
As neither Judge Wilkie or Judge Ticehurst have highlighted the law that makes it obligatory to sign the form, please can you tell me specifically where in law it states that it is obligatory to sign the form and I would of course be happy to obey.
The above text will often make the case go away as they realise that you are aware of the law. In some cases the police will continue and next threaten you with going to court. They could try a number of approaches and most of these enter into grey/untried areas of the law, so you'll need a solicitor to progress further.
For example they could use Section 172 against you as it says that the registered keeper of the vehicle must provide the information.
Or they could use PACE to try and make a case that your form is a confession. However if they take this route then they fall into another grey area as if they try and use PACE then they must comply with it themselves and would have needed to either cautioned you or offered a full explanation of your rights prior to being required to complete a voluntary confession. As they have not done this then you have been deprived of your rights (under PACE) and under Article 6 of the ECHR to a fair trial and that what they are trying to do would fall under the category of a malicious prosecution. We do not believe that PACE applies in Scottish law.
So in summary, if you receive a NiP
Get your legal representative or spouse to complete the form
Get them to write a dated statement confirming that they have completed the form and don't send this back with the form
Return the form unsigned
Await a response and if they refer to DPP vs Broomfield 2002 then send them a response clarifiying this situation
If they still continue with the case you will need a solicitor to support you as part of the next step will be proceeding to court and being represented. This representation will cost you a few hundred pounds and it may not work the first time around and may need to go to appeal before you get the result you are aiming for.
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ed
Member
Registered: 10th Sep 03
User status: Offline
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 Effort for £60, could end up costing more than £60 in the end...
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langey
Member
Registered: 7th Sep 03
Location: Wigan
User status: Offline
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was it a camara in wigan?
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by 1800ed
Effort for £60, could end up costing more than £60 in the end...
points is more important that money imo... IF someone is on their last 3 points (i.e. first 2 years of driving) - then it would be worth it.
My mate got 3 points the other day for doing 36 in a 30 at 11:30 pm, - its a wide road and I've never seen a car go under 40 on it...
Paul J
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Ally
Member
Registered: 2nd Jul 03
Location: Pontypool Drives: a Skoda
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob
u broke the law, face up to it
agreed
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Drew
Banned
Registered: 24th Nov 01
Location: County Durham
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
quote:
Originally posted by 1800ed
Effort for £60, could end up costing more than £60 in the end...
points is more important that money imo... IF someone is on their last 3 points (i.e. first 2 years of driving) - then it would be worth it.
My mate got 3 points the other day for doing 36 in a 30 at 11:30 pm, - its a wide road and I've never seen a car go under 40 on it...
Paul J
if ya on ya last 3 points out of 6, you obviously didnt learn your lesson for the 1st 3, so a ban mite help ya learn better 
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
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Dunno what its like up north (where you are) - but here its a speed camera on every road. A simple trip to watford from amersham (only taking about 20-30 mins) you pass well over 10 cameras.
Fair enough if you know the roads, know where the camera's are and know the speed limits. But if its the first time you've driven it - it's very easy to get caught.
He originally got done for a 39 in a 30, flashed by a camera when he was going down the a40 into london and thought a bit of road was a 40 limit, but was actually a 30. This road is a 3 lane (either side) carriage way that takes you into the center of london, it's not a road on a built up residential estate.
the 2nd time (the 36 in a 30) was by a police man hiding in a bush. At 11 pm it was a bit lame if you ask me, since the road was empty - and this road is nothing like a 30 limit road anyway, i.e. wide, empty and surrounded by fields.
Yes Drew - he should learn better? imo it's not going to teach him anything, he was just unlucky and for his mis-fortune he now has to look forward to a 6 month ban, retaking his test and increased insurance.
Hence - if you were on your last 3 points, I'm sure you'd want to do anything you could to stop getting banned.
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J da Silva
Member
Registered: 10th Apr 03
Location: The FACTory
User status: Offline
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well seeing asthough your a bit of a munter you deserve it dont break the law and you wont get punished
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DanielJ
Member
Registered: 21st Nov 01
Location: gwent, south wales
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by VenomTurbo
well seeing asthough your a bit of a munter you deserve it dont break the law and you wont get punished
harsh words from VT
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Drew
Banned
Registered: 24th Nov 01
Location: County Durham
User status: Offline
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as u say - u dont know what the roads are like up here - but the truth is - i hardly ever see a speed camera
his 1st fine/points, his own fault really even thou he thought was a 40, still should have read the signs, as u said - '1st time u driven it, very easy to get caught' personally id say - #1st time you driven it, ya should be extra causious'
as for 2nd time, i agree, rather lame by the copper
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mav
Member
Registered: 19th Jun 01
Location: Scotland
User status: Offline
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pay it.............
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RWD
Member
Registered: 19th Apr 04
Location: South Ayrshire, Scotland
User status: Offline
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More than 1 car in the photo? if yes, how do they know it is you that is speeding.
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