Dom
Member
Registered: 13th Sep 03
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Balling
The tried and tested arguments is the App Store which has far more apps made specifically for iPad opposed to the "yeah, this sort of works on a tablet" approach often seen on Android apps.
There's simply much more choice on iPad. Need a note taking app? Go ahead and choose between these +20 quality app's all tailored specifically for you device.
But we're talking Business use, so being able to play the latest Angry Birds isn't high on the priority list 
And whilst you may say iOS more forgiving and intuitive for the user, and it perhaps is true to some extent if dealing with the 'basics' (by basics i mean browsing, playing games, social media etc), it is however extremely cumbersome, borderline backwards in most situations, when it comes to doing business work - until recently, when OfficeSuite Pro was ported across, it had a pretty weak selection of Office based applications (no, iWorks isn't a suitable solution).
Either way, there's far better suited, and significantly cheaper, platforms in this case.
|
Dom
Member
Registered: 13th Sep 03
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by dannymccann
That's brilliant Rob, thanks for taking the time to put up such a massive post! 
Have you got a link for the £279 one? I had a quick look earlier and cheapest I could see was on Amazon @ £340 from some marketplace seller?
Thanks
Curry's
All stores should be doing it for the reduced priced.
|
AndyKent
Member
Registered: 3rd Sep 05
User status: Offline
|
I'd give it a week, there's talk of even more money coming off the price end of August...
|
Balling
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Apr 04
Location: Denmark
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by DomBut we're talking Business use, so being able to play the latest Angry Birds isn't high on the priority list
And whilst you may say iOS more forgiving and intuitive for the user, and it perhaps is true to some extent if dealing with the 'basics' (by basics i mean browsing, playing games, social media etc), it is however extremely cumbersome, borderline backwards in most situations, when it comes to doing business work - until recently, when OfficeSuite Pro was ported across, it had a pretty weak selection of Office based applications (no, iWorks isn't a suitable solution).
Either way, there's far better suited, and significantly cheaper, platforms in this case.
Again, just pointing out I'm not saying the iPad is the best choice in this case.
As I proved on the previous page I know far too little about the Surface to even comment on that.
However I still find that a lot of people, yourself included, are often a bit too fast to shoot down the iPad in almost any case and come across as deeming it useless.
Yes, Angry Birds, good laugh. My point is that you never know what is going to be the next big thing like, indeed, Angry Birds, but also Evernote or Dropbox. Yet chances are, whatever it turns out to be, it'll be at iOS from the start.
Agreed, an iPad isn't suited for making spreadsheets or editing word documents, but let's just be perfectly honest here; that's a job for a laptop, not a tablet.
No matter the applications, editing a spreadsheet on a tablet is always going to be cumbersome and backwards.
As for strictly accessing and viewing documents on the tablet, I can't see how this can be made much easier than dragging a file to Dropbox and opening it on your iPad.
The price is definitely a valid point, but then I'd point to Microsoft's and the various manufacturers of Android devices' history of post launch support.
My 3 year old iPhone 4 will soon get the latest iOS (bar a few features) and will continue to handle the newest apps from App Store for at least a year to come.
Microsoft have stepped left and right in terms of mobile software and in some cases left devices less than a year old unsupported, as they completely redeveloped the OS and ignored previous hardware.
How long does it take until an Android or Windows tablet is outdated?
|
Dom
Member
Registered: 13th Sep 03
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Balling
Agreed, an iPad isn't suited for making spreadsheets or editing word documents, but let's just be perfectly honest here; that's a job for a laptop, not a tablet.
No matter the applications, editing a spreadsheet on a tablet is always going to be cumbersome and backwards.
You should have a play with a Surface, it really isn't too bad. Granted it helps having the smart keyboard cover.
quote:
Originally posted by Balling
As for strictly accessing and viewing documents on the tablet, I can't see how this can be made much easier than dragging a file to Dropbox and opening it on your iPad.
Most businesses/enterprises don't deal with Dropbox, rather actual files from multiple sources. Lack of an actual filing system on the iOS hinders this massively and you have to use a multi-app combination to get something that barely resembles what can be achieved out-of-the-box on other platforms - not exactly efficient.
Fact is, iOS has never really been business orientated and technically it can't be without fundamental changes to the OS - which is unlikely to happen. Until it changes then there will always be better platforms for this.
[Edited on 26-08-2013 by Dom]
|
Balling
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Apr 04
Location: Denmark
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dom
You should have a play with a Surface, it really isn't too bad. Granted it helps having the smart keyboard cover.
Most businesses/enterprises don't deal with Dropbox, rather actual files from multiple sources. Lack of an actual filing system on the iOS hinders this massively and you have to use a multi-app combination to get something that barely resembles what can be achieved out-of-the-box on other platforms - not exactly efficient.
Fact is, iOS has never really been business orientated and technically it can't be without fundamental changes to the OS - which is unlikely to happen. Until it changes then there will always be better platforms for this.
I'd love to play around with a Surface. The Windows tablets we have at work don't come with Office pre-installed.
It sounds like you're talking large scale enterprises that need tablets as an alternative to laptops, which is far from how I view them and indeed how they're used in 100% of all the cases I've seen people use tablets in their work.
I don't view the missing file structure as an issue at all. On the contrary it's a huge benefit of the iPad compared to using an actual PC.
I see people who store their files in mails, dropbox or dedicated apps in ways that far surpass looking for them in a file hierarchy and messing around with different folders. This is lightweight computing we're talking about here.
I can't help but think that your arguments for the Surface sound like they won't actually benefit the woman who in this case is the intended user.
I certainly know that my wife would not be celebrating the arrival of file structure on her iPad.
For a work device intended to keep you calendar, email, photos, few documents and other basic stuff, I'm of the firm belief that simplicity is king. Unpopular as I know it is, I think this has more to do with the iPad's popularity than brand snobbery and "Apple blinkers".
|
evilrob
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Mar 12
Location: Your mum's house
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dom
quote:
Originally posted by evilrob
* strictly speaking this isn't true - it is possible to get some traditional Windows applications to run on Windows RT but it's not something your average user is going to want to do as it involves a lot of faff.
You mean running Win86Emu?
It's pretty straight foward to get running - download and install the jailbreak, download and install Win86Emu, reboot, done. Gizmodo had a good article about it.
It's far from brilliant and it's a bit like Wine in that a lot of the bigger applications don't run particularly well and it's a little buggy but it should run a reasonable amount of applications (there's a list of supported applications on XDA forums).
I only put that disclaimer in cos I knew you'd pipe up!
It isn't a faff for you or me, but I don't think it's something the average user is either going to want to do, or should in my opinion. She probably doesn't need DOSbox, PuTTY, Notepad++, TightVNC or old RPGs etc. - the kind of geeky things that people on XDA-dev want to see running on it! And anything she might want to run probably won't work very well like Super Fluffy Kitten Calendar Maker and Ironing Manager, at least not without some registry hacks.
|
evilrob
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Mar 12
Location: Your mum's house
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by dannymccann
That's brilliant Rob, thanks for taking the time to put up such a massive post!
No worries, chap. 
|
evilrob
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Mar 12
Location: Your mum's house
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by dannymccann
Have you got a link for the £279 one? I had a quick look earlier and cheapest I could see was on Amazon @ £340 from some marketplace seller?
I see Dom's pointed you in the direction of Curry's already.
You can also get them from John Lewis with a 2-year guarantee:
http://www.johnlewis.com/microsoft-surface-rt-tablet-nvidia-tegra-3-1-3ghz-windows-rt-10-6-wi-fi-32gb/p509360
Or directly from Microsoft:
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msuk/en_GB/pdp/productID.277940500
She'll almost certainly want one of the keyboard covers if you don't already have some kind of portable keyboard, bluetooth or otherwise:
'Touch' keyboard - like the Apple Smart Cover but actually does something:
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msuk/en_GB/pdp/Surface-Touch-Cover/productID.258666600
Or a tiny bit thicker but with actual clicky keys: http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msuk/en_GB/pdp/productID.258667000
You may be able to get the keyboard covers for less if you shop around. Doing any serious typing would require the one with clicky keys. If your Mrs types using two fingers, she could probably get away with the touch cover.
That said, the clicky key cover is £110. Whilst not as integrated and compact, my £110 would be going on something like the Microsoft Wedge Keyboard and Mouse cos they look way cooler and are still quite portable so will easily drop into a bag:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/24/3265121/microsoft-wedge-touch-mouse-and-mobile-keyboard-review
The Wedge Keyboard and Mouse are £70-80 each RRP, but you can get the pair for around a ton if you shop around:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=microsoft+wedge
This is a nice case for keeping the tablet safe in a bag with or without keyboard attached:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Snugg-Microsoft-Surface-Leather-Wallet/dp/B00D18U63O/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1377520267&sr=8-8&keywords=microsoft+surface+keyboard
[Edited on 26-08-2013 by evilrob]
|
LeeM
Member
Registered: 26th Sep 05
Location: Liverpool
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by AndyKent
I'd give it a week, there's talk of even more money coming off the price end of August...
if they come down any more, i'll probably get one
|
evilrob
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Mar 12
Location: Your mum's house
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by LeeM
quote:
Originally posted by AndyKent
I'd give it a week, there's talk of even more money coming off the price end of August...
if they come down any more, i'll probably get one
If you know anyone with kids in education, or any teachers, they can be had for £251.10 inc. VAT directly from Microsoft:
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msuk/en_GB/pdp/productID.281767400
|
Dom
Member
Registered: 13th Sep 03
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by evilrob
quote:
Originally posted by Dom
quote:
Originally posted by evilrob
* strictly speaking this isn't true - it is possible to get some traditional Windows applications to run on Windows RT but it's not something your average user is going to want to do as it involves a lot of faff.
You mean running Win86Emu?
It's pretty straight foward to get running - download and install the jailbreak, download and install Win86Emu, reboot, done. Gizmodo had a good article about it.
It's far from brilliant and it's a bit like Wine in that a lot of the bigger applications don't run particularly well and it's a little buggy but it should run a reasonable amount of applications (there's a list of supported applications on XDA forums).
I only put that disclaimer in cos I knew you'd pipe up!
It isn't a faff for you or me, but I don't think it's something the average user is either going to want to do, or should in my opinion. She probably doesn't need DOSbox, PuTTY, Notepad++, TightVNC or old RPGs etc. - the kind of geeky things that people on XDA-dev want to see running on it! And anything she might want to run probably won't work very well like Super Fluffy Kitten Calendar Maker and Ironing Manager, at least not without some registry hacks.
|
dannymccann
Member
Registered: 9th Aug 06
Location: Doddington, Lincolnshire
User status: Offline
|
Went in currys earlier for a play but they only had the 350 one on display, it was very nice though, much difference? I nearly bought the 279 one there and then but andy has said there may be even more coming off soon so i may wait that little bit longer
|
Dom
Member
Registered: 13th Sep 03
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Balling
It sounds like you're talking large scale enterprises that need tablets as an alternative to laptops, which is far from how I view them and indeed how they're used in 100% of all the cases I've seen people use tablets in their work.
I don't view the missing file structure as an issue at all. On the contrary it's a huge benefit of the iPad compared to using an actual PC.
I see people who store their files in mails, dropbox or dedicated apps in ways that far surpass looking for them in a file hierarchy and messing around with different folders. This is lightweight computing we're talking about here.
Perfect example - VPN into the office, grab a document off the server, do a few edits and email it on. I certainly wouldn't say that was a taxing or arduous task for a tablet, in fact i would say that was pretty basic in what should be expected of one if using it for work.
I spent the best part of 20/30 minutes with a client (this is a small business btw) and his iPad, luckily we were out having lunch but still, Googling trying to get some sort of solution going - even the few file browser apps we tried didn't want to play ball connecting to the network share (both samba and afp).
In the end i did it all off my phone, small screen and sausage fingers didn't help, in under five minutes and emailed it over to him so he could forward it on.
And that's only one of a handful of examples i have of trying to use iOS is a typical business way. And i just find any solution is overly complicated and counterintuitive.
Granted, if iOS works for you for work then great but unfortunately from my experiences it vastly inferior to other platforms for business work.
Any way, i think we've derailed this thread nicely.
|
evilrob
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Mar 12
Location: Your mum's house
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by dannymccann
Went in currys earlier for a play but they only had the 350 one on display, it was very nice though, much difference? I nearly bought the 279 one there and then but andy has said there may be even more coming off soon so i may wait that little bit longer
The only difference between the £279 one and the £359 one is that the more expensive one has 64gb storage built-in. Not worth it in my opinion, with the cheaper 32Gb one having a MicroSD slot; obviously a MicroSD card won't be as fast at read/writes compared to the built-in SSD, but I wouldn't have thought your Mrs will need masses of storage. With decent 64Gb MicroSDXC cards being around £40, I can't see any point in spending twice as much for an extra 32Gb built-in.
Unless it was the 32Gb bundled with the touch keyboard cover, which is also (confusingly) £359:
http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/computing/ipad-tablets-and-ereaders/tablets/microsoft-surface-rt-10-6-convertible-tablet-32-gb-with-touch-cover-tablet-keyboard-21289378-pdt.html
If she's not in any hurry, there's certainly no shortage of them so by all means see what happens. Bear in mind though that they were originally £399 when they first came out, and it was only in July that Microsoft slashed £120 off the price to boost sales, so a further reduction might be unlikely in the very near future.
[Edited on 26-08-2013 by evilrob]
|
Balling
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Apr 04
Location: Denmark
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dom
Perfect example - VPN into the office, grab a document off the server, do a few edits and email it on. I certainly wouldn't say that was a taxing or arduous task for a tablet, in fact i would say that was pretty basic in what should be expected of one if using it for work.
I spent the best part of 20/30 minutes with a client (this is a small business btw) and his iPad, luckily we were out having lunch but still, Googling trying to get some sort of solution going - even the few file browser apps we tried didn't want to play ball connecting to the network share (both samba and afp).
In the end i did it all off my phone, small screen and sausage fingers didn't help, in under five minutes and emailed it over to him so he could forward it on.
And that's only one of a handful of examples i have of trying to use iOS is a typical business way. And i just find any solution is overly complicated and counterintuitive.
Granted, if iOS works for you for work then great but unfortunately from my experiences it vastly inferior to other platforms for business work.
Any way, i think we've derailed this thread nicely.
I agree, that is a perfect example. Being able to VPN on to a servers file structure would be nice and something I could find useful in my day to day tasks.
That said, it's not as big an issue as you want to make it. I certainly don't think Danny's missus is going to be missing VPN functionality. Again, I think your thinking in terms of larger businesses. Chances are that 9 out of 10 self-employed people don't use VPN (or even know what it is).
And just to keep things perfectly clear, I'm still not saying "get an iPad" I'm just saying maybe don't be so quick to shoot it down.
At the price and including the software needed, the Surface does indeed look like a great option in this case.
And hopefully Danny doesn't find a discussion of his options to be derailing his thread.
|
dannymccann
Member
Registered: 9th Aug 06
Location: Doddington, Lincolnshire
User status: Offline
|
No it's all quite interesting I'll let you uber nerds Gerry on with it and just happily read along, I'm just about keeping up. However the surface does appear to be winning at the moment. Shame you can't use macros though, any workarounds, whether legit or forced in?
|
evilrob
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Mar 12
Location: Your mum's house
User status: Offline
|
Nope. No add-ins either.
For macros you need a full Windows 8 tablet PLUS an Office License. It all starts getting very expensive for something you should really be doing on a dedicated desktop or laptop computer. Tablet computers are more suited to light tasks and viewing content rather than creating what are essentially small applications! It may be that any macro-enabled models she uses can be tweaked to achieve more or less the same end result without macros - I've seen many examples of people using macros because they aren't aware that there are actually built-in functions that achieve the same effect. There are plenty of people on here who can help you with this, myself included.
There is the Surface Pro which is the "full fat" Surface experience with full Windows 8, but they start at an eye-watering £719 not including Office. You do get a lovely 1080P HD screen on the Surface Pro, but you pay for it in the significantly higher cost, lower battery life and heavier weight. Understandable as it's a full computer in a tablet form factor.
You can buy a copy of Office Home and Business 2013 for about £180. Alternatively you can "rent" Office via Microsoft's Office 365 Small Business Premium subscription for about £100+VAT a year:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-gb/business/compare-office-365-for-business-plans-FX102918419.aspx
(ignore the £40 a year option - it's horse shit)
Cheapest full Win8 tablet that isn't horrible is probably something like the Asus VivoTab at around £400:
http://www.johnlewis.com/asus-vivotab-smart-me400c-tablet-intel-atom-1-8ghz-windows-8-10-1-wi-fi-64gb-black/p581241
You can also allegedly get a nice keyboard dock for it, called the "Asus Mobile Dock 2.0" but I couldn't find one from any UK retailers, only US-based eBay sellers:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xasus+mobile+dock+2.0&_nkw=asus+mobile+dock+2.0&_sacat=0&_from=R40
But if she really needs macros, then she probably wants to be looking at something a bit beefier than the Asus, like an 11" ultrabook, but these aren't cheap either and you'll still need to buy Office on top usually.
Personally, I'd live without the macros cos it's just too expensive to get a decent lightweight, long battery life, portable setup. For £279 I'd happily live with the RT's limitations.
[Edited on 26-08-2013 by evilrob]
|
dannymccann
Member
Registered: 9th Aug 06
Location: Doddington, Lincolnshire
User status: Offline
|
No fair enough, I'm planning on building her a small quote generator that I thought would use macros but maybe data validation would work instead. And I do mean basic, nothing like that Google maps thing you sent to me a while back rob!
|
evilrob
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Mar 12
Location: Your mum's house
User status: Offline
|
Oh it was you I made that for was it? Lol... forgot about that!
Well as you know then, I'm a right bastard for macros, so if I can live without them anyone can!
Just use something like Wufoo to make a web-based form-to-email quote generator:
http://www.wufoo.com/2013/05/30/need-a-price-quote-heres-how-with-wufoo/
Bosh!
|
|
