g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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Look, I'm sorry. No disrespect muppetsport, but there are a couple of major failings in your argument.
First of all, do you genuinely believe that the internals of the 1.2 can take 160bhp? We're talking about 120~130% power hike upon standard. That's over double the strain on the crank, rods, bearings, valve train, timing chain and gearbox. Not to mention the extra cooling required.
Second of all, you mention modern ECU's on 'OBD' having multiple channels for altering ignition and fuel. Wrong. OBD is a diagnostic standard. Hundreds of cars have OBD and OBD-II compliant ECUs, but they are not mappable in the slightest.
"Power can come in two ways"...no it can't. Power is power. It comes in one way and one way only. Power (kW, HP, PS) is simply 'work done'. I.e the amount of force (torque in Nm or Lb.Ft) applied at a certain RPM.
You say "who said it was reliable"...why would they sell it a kit that wasn't reliable, when they actually do claim that it is.
Then the best came. You say that running low boost on a high comp engine, is the same as high boost on a low comp engine. My Goooood, tell me you were kidding? You try running 1bar boost on a 11:1 engine. See how violatile it becomes at high revs, and how quickly it detonates into a pile of shrapnel that lines your exhaust bore. No amount of intercooling in the world will make that reliable.
You really think the likes of Reyland spent thousands getting the Reyland Escort Cosworth running circa 680bhp with uprated internals to lower compression and increase airflow, when all they needed was standard rods and pistons out a diesel Transit to run stupidly high compression and get the same power?
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matt-the-hoople
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Registered: 17th Nov 05
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from team muppetsport at slicks house.
every ecu is mapable. obd 0 has to have the chip blanked and renewed to enable a remap. obd1 also has to have the chip replaced but once blank can be done. obd2 can be done via serial port without removing anything. we know becuase we have done so.
as for internals of a 1.2. yes, i believe that is more than achievable. timing chain isnt under any extra stress at all. infact its irrelevant. is there any extra strain on my 150bhp 20xe cambelt at 400bhp? is there any extra strain on a 150bhp cambelt on an ibiza, is there any more on a 350bhp prelude? no. if anything a timing chain is better than cambelt to deal with the stress. if anything , due to such low boost the internals arent being put under a great deal more stress as the revs are not increased at all.
by power coming i 2 ways i didnt make that clear.i meant , n/a vast increases in power come from higher rpm. by turbos, power comes from bigger turbo, not necessarily boost level.
also, the turbo'd n/a thing is not wat you say, what i am saying is to make good bhp on a n/a engine, leave the compressin higher run less boost has the same end power result as a low compression running more boost. you havent understood that at all.
as for an n/a turbo high compression reliable, do you not know how to adjust ignition timing and up fuelling to combat detonation? comon thing in honda world running high compression and turbo making 500bhp??
adaptecm search on migweb please, runs an xe bottom end, turbo etc and makes 681bhp. thats high compression. im not saying it runs std rods, all im saying is it is high compression running less boost that low comp equivelants and making same power.
now, reylands cossie, theyve spent los of money making 680bhp? thats a cossie engine. which is already turbo'd from std. this post is about a 1.2 16v vauxhall engine running normal compression with a turbo.
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g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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Quick reply - much appreciated  Btw, just to clarify, this isn't a personal attack and no disrespect...
As mentioned before, ODB standards are irrelevant as to an ECU's mapping ability. A 1.6 Escort has an OBD compatible ECU, but is not externally mappable without a piggy-back chip, or replacement ROM. To say that all ECU's are mappable is slightly dishonest as I do not consider replacing the main ROM as part of a bolt on kit. Bluefin is even chancing it. ODB refers to diagnostic codes and their interogation. Hence the fact ODB stands for On-board diagnostics.
I don't think the crank on a 1.2 would take 160bhp for very long, I genuinely don't.
Besides that, if you were to look at the VE table for the 1.2, you'd see the air and fuel required for 160bhp would far exceed that available from the standard head. Ports will need honed, valves will need enlargened and cams will need to be lary.
Of course the chain is under more stress. Imagine you and I were holding a rope. I am the crank shaft, you are the cam shaft (with associated mass resistance). This rope is slightly frayed, and any sudden jerks will snap it. I can 'nurse' you, on your skateboard, to 10mph no problem. If I take off, full steam ahead and tug it really hard....what'll happen? This is a similar type strain applied to the already weak cam chain. So yes, the increase in torque and power on your 400bhp engine will strain the cam belt considerably. Or in this case, potentially stretch the chain. This will be more prominent from low revs.
You can adjust the timing and fuelling to combat detonation, of course you can. The fact is the timing is retarded to within 10% of TDC and the engine is useless under 5k rpm, just like standard N/A VTEC's. How many high power, high compression forced induction motors are there, compared to low comp, high boost torque monsters?
I was using the Cossie engine as an example. High compression is for N/A applications, for high power output, low torque applications. Such as Honda's and motorcycles.
Low comp, high boost is for high torque, high power, and greater longivity.
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Robin
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Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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your point about the timing chain, if you read up about the dbilas kits, the power comes in progressively, as if they are not turbocharged... so there is no sudden rush of torque straining the belt/chain.
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Nic Barnes
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Registered: 5th Apr 04
Location: nowhere near ginger people
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high boost tourque monsters? how many high boost tourque monsters even low compression have you seen that are any use under 5000rpm?? there full of lag.
when talking about flowingof the head etc, the main thing to remember is we are talking about forced induction. the n/a 20xe inlet manifold and head will not flow enough to see you over 180bhp without tb's however on the let it can often see 370 with even 450 being seen using the same items as a 20xe. foced induction doesnt require as much of a smooth transition into the chamber due to it being forced in, not rely on combustion to suck the air in, same as the fuel.
in regards to obd, yes it does stand for on-board diagnosis, but you are simply thinking of it as a term of diagnostics and a plug, such as obd0 is used on older hondas and most cars. they dont have a diagnostic port.
most modern ecu's use a learning mode, if you change the original rom as the kit for this corsa does, you can alter the paramaters from wihich it can learn from allowing for other things to be changed.
friends ibiza (matt-the-hoople above) had his ibiza mapped on std chip after a flash via the diagnostics port changing it from 150bhp to running 240. wasnt until he had it done gain seeking 300bhp they changed the chip. but its still the same ecu.
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Nic Barnes
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Registered: 5th Apr 04
Location: nowhere near ginger people
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your point about timing chain again, with remarks to the rope scenario, a rope isnt joined going round in a cricle turning the engine just by making it forced induction does not make sudden jolts in the belt any more than it would if you backed off the throttle then fully applied it again.
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Matt H
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Registered: 11th Sep 01
Location: South Yorkshire
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Got bored of the arguing so haven't read the whole thread.
Stop quoting details from other cars, they aren't relevant really are they?
Now, back to the 1.2 engine
Who saw the black 5 door SXI at Trax? (JR, Im sure we looked at it?)
It had simply been remapped & Im sure it was over 110bhp (Can't remember the exact figure)
The point Im trying to make is that its clearly more tunable than people first think
[Edited on 30-12-2006 by Matt H]
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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no way on this earth would an sxi 1.2 16v engine make 110bhp with just a remap
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Matt H
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Registered: 11th Sep 01
Location: South Yorkshire
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It might not have been 110 but Im sure it was over 100
JR might remember it, Im sure we were looking at it
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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Thats only a 91bhp specific output though which is certainly inside the realms of possibility for a naturally aspirated engine.
I however though think its safe to assume that there would no reason to make the engine capable of such power and then tune it down only with a map.
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Nic Barnes
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Registered: 5th Apr 04
Location: nowhere near ginger people
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt H
Got bored of the arguing so haven't read the whole thread.
Stop quoting details from other cars, they aren't relevant really are they?
Now, back to the 1.2 engine
Who saw the black 5 door SXI at Trax? (JR, Im sure we looked at it?)
It had simply been remapped & Im sure it was over 110bhp (Can't remember the exact figure)
The point Im trying to make is that its clearly more tunable than people first think
[Edited on 30-12-2006 by Matt H]
by quoting info from other cars we are trying to say that it is possible there arent any other 1200 16v turbos that we can use as examples.
also matt, by using examples of other cars we are showing the theories into why this is possible.
or is it better to say nothing and say its bullshit like all the other people that have no clue what so ever about engines and tuning potential of forced induction.
trying to make the point that there are the possiblities out there instead of people saying bollocks to it. thats all
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Nic Barnes
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Registered: 5th Apr 04
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ps matt h, by saying you got bored means you do not undersatand the priciples that are contained within this post.
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g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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Turbo lag can be defeated, though. Anti-lag, for example, can keep the turbo spooling right through the rev range, as can full throttle gear changes.
Turbo lag isn't a characteristic of the engine; it's the turbo itself.
Granted, forced induction engines aren't as fussy when it comes to head flow, but on something as small as a 1.2, you're going to need to flow some serious air to get 160bhp. With high compression and low boost, this matters all the more.
The fact regarding ODB still stands. It doesn't matter what ODB standard it's running, it doesn't make it any more mappable.
The fact the chain loops in a circle makes near as no difference. The teeth in the chain mean that the piece of chain between the end link at the last cam, and the start link at the crank sprocket act as this piece of rope bearing the strain. Backing on and off the throttle does indeed induce stress, but the extra power available at the time of acceleration does induce far more stress than normal.
I'm willing to put (a fair amount of) money that this car does not produce 158 reliable bhp on standard internals.
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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i just typed a massive reply in defence to the claimed power output, and pressed alt and some f button and lost it all!!
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g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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P.S I'd strongly contest that I have no clue about the potential of forced induction motors. I'm more than aware of how beneficial turbo'd applications can be, but take this for example.
1.6 CVH Escort, RS Turbo. 8 valve head but flows more air than the standard 1.2 16v. Runs 8.5 vs 9.5:1 compression ratio and produces 132bhp at 0.9bar. To get 160bhp, you'll need an intercooler and about 1.2 bar of boost.
How much boost, therefore, does the 1.2 require to make the same power (with 10:1)?
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Matt H
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Registered: 11th Sep 01
Location: South Yorkshire
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No it means I got to page 5 & became bored of people bitching. Scan a read the rest & it seemed to repeat a lot of crap
Yes you could compare it too another manufacturer or other engines but these cars weren't intially designed to tootle about in like the Corsa SXI was
Im not questioning the figure, or that it could be possible. Im saying that comparing a Renault 5 GTT engine & a 1.2 Vauxhall engine isn't exactly the best way to proove a point?
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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bla bla-a 1.2 cant take 160 on its internals-progressive boost-look at the power graph-it isnt a instant all out bollox blow of power.
obd2 compliant are mappable-fuck me i can do it with tech2. its a piece of piss remap the 170bhp engine to the same power output of 200bhp engine. just change the variant config on tech2.
extra strain on the chain due to turbo-bollox-the tensioner is very effective at absorbing any sort of "quick shock". the differences between the 1.2 twinport and 1.4 twinport? 198ccs and software-again tech2, SPS engine ecu and put z14xep info-very noticeable power gains. iv yet to try z16xep softare as the astra h and corsa c use differnet can-bus programming.
people see the words 1,2 and 160 bhp and crap themselves because they cant accept that a 1.2 CAN produce similar power to an xe corsa. my 1.3cdti i had in 2004-i was slated for having it-yet now they can push over 130bhp. people face it, engine technology has come a long way,certain people cant accept it. jump on your reylands bandwagon-they spent £1000's on their cossie...bla bla bla. i dont care. we are discussing the z12xe-an engine which is extremely strong. and i personally think that if it has a bolt on turbo, running 160 is feesable.
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g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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Especially as anything over 150bhp in them won't be on standard internals.....
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Warren G
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Registered: 14th May 06
Location: Kent
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could this person who own this car, please get it rolling roaded
PLEASE!
the way i see it is
the corsa c z12xep, has 75bhp standard, has a restrictive exhasut manifold (goes from 4 branchs straight into the cat) nothing wrong with the timing chains, the z20net, z22se all use timing chains
the engines don't seem to come back into work with other than timing chain recalls (just a bad design, which has now been fixed)
i got 15bhp over standard with a 4 branch manifold decat and exhaust system, o and panel filter on a x14xe,
so say 10bhp increase with sports cat, exhaust manifold and exhaust system with there dbilas flow master thing
maps are always set to me ecomonical, so add 5bhp with a better map
the kit also includes a inlet manifold (claimed 23bhp increase) with are simliar to what people fit these to x14xe/x16xe and gain 15-20bhp. So they obvisaly work, which will increase say 10bhp, even tho we have said forced indution won't affect this much
then we have the turbo, say at low boost 25bhp is achieable
total is 135bhp, we all no 158bhp is very optersimtic, but 130-140 is achieable
and obd mapping (live mapping) is becoming more popular, and is quite easy to do once you've got the software and leads
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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quote:
Originally posted by warren.g
could this person who own this car, please get it rolling roaded
PLEASE!
the way i see it is
the corsa c z12xep, has 75bhp standard, has a restrictive exhasut manifold (goes from 4 branchs straight into the cat) nothing wrong with the timing chains, the z20net, z22se all use timing chains
the engines don't seem to come back into work with other than timing chain recalls (just a bad design, which has now been fixed)
i got 15bhp over standard with a 4 branch manifold decat and exhaust system, o and panel filter on a x14xe,
so say 10bhp increase with sports cat, exhaust manifold and exhaust system with there dbilas flow master thing
maps are always set to me ecomonical, so add 5bhp with a better map
the kit also includes a inlet manifold (claimed 23bhp increase) with are simliar to what people fit these to x14xe/x16xe and gain 15-20bhp. So they obvisaly work, which will increase say 10bhp, even tho we have said forced indution won't affect this much
then we have the turbo, say at low boost 25bhp is achieable
total is 135bhp, we all no 158bhp is very optersimtic, but 130-140 is achieable
and obd mapping (live mapping) is becoming more popular, and is quite easy to do once you've got the software and leads
yes very simple-takes about 4minutes to change z20leh to z20let.
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g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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I'm not doubting that a 1.2 Ecotec can produce 160bhp, at all. I could make a 1.0 Corsa produce 200bhp with the correct funds.
I am, however, doubting that a 1.2 Ecotec can produce 160 reliable bhp from a bolt on kit. We're talking low boost, and 130% power hike. Come on!
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Warren G
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Registered: 14th May 06
Location: Kent
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quote:
Originally posted by bubblevaux
obd2 compliant are mappable-fuck me i can do it with tech2. its a piece of piss remap the 170bhp engine to the same power output of 200bhp engine. just change the variant config on tech2.
extra strain on the chain due to turbo-bollox-the tensioner is very effective at absorbing any sort of "quick shock". the differences between the 1.2 twinport and 1.4 twinport? 198ccs and software-again tech2, SPS engine ecu and put z14xep info-very noticeable power gains. iv yet to try z16xep softare as the astra h and corsa c use differnet can-bus programming.
have you ever done it to a x14xe, with a x16xe map, was thinking doing this at work! what do you think?
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Nic Barnes
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Registered: 5th Apr 04
Location: nowhere near ginger people
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g-man, im not saying you dont get forced induction, far from it. just that you were basing flow estimates assuming that forced induction uses the same princliples, although slightly, you dont have to has as smooth flow for it to be efficient.
turbo lag, yes, not entirely what the 1.2 16v turbo is about. also it is an issue, but you will find less lag and more driveability running a n/a turbo's engine higher compression and low boost compared to the same power with low comp and more boost, will have more lag.
as for reliable, yes, i dont question that part. i dont assume for one minute it will last 100,000 miles. but, with the set up it runs, it wont just go bang. there have been many many successful n/a turbo's on high compression
for example, not quoting other cars as per matt h's request but we have to, prelude 2.2 v-tec 197 bhp at 10.6:1, add a turbo at 6psi is now over 300bhp. c20let running 9:1 will need 1.2 bar to see 300bhp.
i know you are going to say about air flow etc etc and different engines, but its a similar principle. that 1.2 n/a uses 0.6 bar i beleive to make its 158bhp. i should add the kit claims 145bhp this may have head work or different cams, we dont know. really we are arguing on the priciples of it, and the car making 158bhp is irrelevant as all we have are pics of it, no actual info other than what the kit comes with.
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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quote:
Originally posted by warren.g
quote:
Originally posted by bubblevaux
obd2 compliant are mappable-fuck me i can do it with tech2. its a piece of piss remap the 170bhp engine to the same power output of 200bhp engine. just change the variant config on tech2.
extra strain on the chain due to turbo-bollox-the tensioner is very effective at absorbing any sort of "quick shock". the differences between the 1.2 twinport and 1.4 twinport? 198ccs and software-again tech2, SPS engine ecu and put z14xep info-very noticeable power gains. iv yet to try z16xep softare as the astra h and corsa c use differnet can-bus programming.
have you ever done it to a x14xe, with a x16xe map, was thinking doing this at work! what do you think?
no. its so easy on cars running can-bus technology-simply alter variant configuration in each ecu that requires engine data, then alter engine map itself and hey presto.
x14xe and x16xe are older technologys and without better equipment i cant do it. can-bus though-yeh bring it on!
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g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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I love how you drop the 198ccs like it's nothing. Changes to cylinder capacity is one of the biggest power and torque influences you can make.
[Edited on 30-12-2006 by g-man]
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