bubble
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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quote:
Originally posted by g-man
I love how you drop the 198ccs like it's nothing. Changes to cylinder capacity is one of the biggest power and torque influences you can make.
[Edited on 30-12-2006 by g-man]
indeed you are correct-more cc does inevitabley mean more power. however there are certain flaws to the rule.
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Warren G
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Registered: 14th May 06
Location: Kent
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quote:
yes very simple-takes about 4minutes to change z20leh to z20let.
i mean proper mapping, not just sps'ing using tech2
i mean using software to raise rev limits and change limitations,
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Nic Barnes
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Registered: 5th Apr 04
Location: nowhere near ginger people
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quote:
Originally posted by g-man
I'm not doubting that a 1.2 Ecotec can produce 160bhp, at all. I could make a 1.0 Corsa produce 200bhp with the correct funds.
I am, however, doubting that a 1.2 Ecotec can produce 160 reliable bhp from a bolt on kit. We're talking low boost, and 130% power hike. Come on!
we dont know it is just a bolt on kit we dont know about the car or the engine in it, the owner isnt on here. for all we know it may have a worked head and some cams
low boost on an n/a as i said will provide sam power as higher boost on low compression. it is more than believable to me.
if someone has a 1.2 16v and wants to buy the kit, will fit it for you just to see what the outcome is. we will also speak to dave a and use his own rolling road to test the results.
i dont doubt its possible, and thats all ive ever tried to point out
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Warren G
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Registered: 14th May 06
Location: Kent
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quote:
have you ever done it to a x14xe, with a x16xe map, was thinking doing this at work! what do you think?
no. its so easy on cars running can-bus technology-simply alter variant configuration in each ecu that requires engine data, then alter engine map itself and hey presto.
x14xe and x16xe are older technologys and without better equipment i cant do it. can-bus though-yeh bring it on!
you can do it with tech 2? do to sps, request data, when the engine data comes up, change it to x16xe. Haven't tried it yet tho
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by warren.g
quote:
yes very simple-takes about 4minutes to change z20leh to z20let.
i mean proper mapping, not just sps'ing using tech2
i mean using software to raise rev limits and change limitations,
oh no. there are no differences at all between the z20lel and the let APART from software-simply altering the can bus config then sps'ing the engine ecu and reloading let software does hit the 200bhp mark.
standard sps'ing u cannot up limters or alter boost levels unfortunately. however u can get software to upload maps into the tis2000 SPS programme-but i wouldnt even dare do this. but the majority of xe engines(as in z12xep/z14xep) are all identical apart from software and flow restrictions.
its a shame that as main dealers we cant perform these upgrades officially.
ie for anyone with the z13dt engine-reprogramme it with SPS and put the country as turkey-removes EGR system electronically and automatically runs higher boost!! amazing.
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by bubblevaux
people face it, engine technology has come a long way,certain people cant accept it. jump on your reylands bandwagon-they spent £1000's on their cossie...bla bla bla. i dont care. we are discussing the z12xe-an engine which is extremely strong. and i personally think that if it has a bolt on turbo, running 160 is feesable.
Spot on here.
Remember also, the Reyland engine cost so much, as it's an ancient design. More than 25 years old infact.
No-one questions the fact that a 1.6 can make 180bhp + with standard internals N/A...
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by warren.g
quote:
have you ever done it to a x14xe, with a x16xe map, was thinking doing this at work! what do you think?
no. its so easy on cars running can-bus technology-simply alter variant configuration in each ecu that requires engine data, then alter engine map itself and hey presto.
x14xe and x16xe are older technologys and without better equipment i cant do it. can-bus though-yeh bring it on!
you can do it with tech 2? do to sps, request data, when the engine data comes up, change it to x16xe. Haven't tried it yet tho
no, x16xe uses EEPROM. not can-bus. i havent tried it myself, but id say that it isnt p[ossible using standard GM software-it will recognise chassis number,and know that is a family x engine which cant have the software altered-apart from sps-which ont he family x engine, you cannot change running maps.
maybe worth a rtry though one saturday afternoon
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Nic Barnes
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Registered: 5th Apr 04
Location: nowhere near ginger people
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
quote:
Originally posted by bubblevaux
people face it, engine technology has come a long way,certain people cant accept it. jump on your reylands bandwagon-they spent £1000's on their cossie...bla bla bla. i dont care. we are discussing the z12xe-an engine which is extremely strong. and i personally think that if it has a bolt on turbo, running 160 is feesable.
Spot on here.
Remember also, the Reyland engine cost so much, as it's an ancient design. More than 25 years old infact.
No-one questions the fact that a 1.6 can make 180bhp + with standard internals N/A...
yep robin, but suggest 80bhp gains are possible on other engines it has to be false.
its (not you g-man i like your debate) peoples views that smaller engines are shite and nothing can be gained from them
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
User status: Offline
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EEPROM chip needs replacing on the family x engines, it cannot be done with tech 2 
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Warren G
Member
Registered: 14th May 06
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
quote:
Originally posted by bubblevaux
people face it, engine technology has come a long way,certain people cant accept it. jump on your reylands bandwagon-they spent £1000's on their cossie...bla bla bla. i dont care. we are discussing the z12xe-an engine which is extremely strong. and i personally think that if it has a bolt on turbo, running 160 is feesable.
Spot on here.
Remember also, the Reyland engine cost so much, as it's an ancient design. More than 25 years old infact.
No-one questions the fact that a 1.6 can make 180bhp + with standard internals N/A...
i'l second that, who would of fort 15 years ago a 1.2 could make 75bhp, only 10years ago 1.2's had 45bhp!
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g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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Nonononononoooo! CAN-BUS, ODB, forget it all! It makes no difference to the principles of how an engine makes power. The VXR is known to have a different turbo and different injectors. These were cheaply available as Astra GSi upgrades until Vauxhall clocked on and upped the prices.
An engine makes power based on one important factor. How of the proper air/fuel mixture it can squeeze into the chamber.
Correct mapping is key to this yes, but the fact it runs ODB/I/II/CAN-BUS makes absolutely no difference. CAN-BUS, FWIW, was a standard introduced to integrate the rest of the vehicle electronics with the engine management. It's aint new, either. Bosch have been doing it for years, and Ford have been regulating the Focus and Mondeo alternator output using it since the days of the Romans.
0.6bar is about 8psi. The engine produces 75bhp with 1bar (that's atmospheric on an NA engine). In theory, to produce 150bhp, you're going to need 1bar of boost.
Think about it, please. I don't doubt this is a fantastic kit. A good power hike for decent money. But 158bhp? No chance. I'd say @ 0.6 bar, revised management and inlet, you're pushing 135bhp, tops.
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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hmmm. i will say this. little boxers can knock the fck out of big boxers.
1.2 16v are strong, they can hack the shit that is given to them and i think they can take 160bhp.
as for the bollox about flow rates etc into the inlet tracts-all this can be thrown out of the window when it comes to FORCED IN DUCTION. forced induction is exactly as it is described-forced. you imagine a big door, and a 1.2 on the other side-due to the suck squeeze bang blow principal, yes it would be hard to pull big power through the door, you put a turbo on the other side FORCING the power through-hell, your door is wide open and ponies are flowing. the z12xe engine is of a small displacement, but once you start giving it some tuning it is actually a good engine. i would have more faith in a z12xe chain driven engine running a turbine than i would any other vx engine. peoples problems here is that they see 160bhp and 1.2 together and shit themselves-their balls shrivel because they dont wanna accept the fact that a 1.2 engine can make BIG power!!
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bubble
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by g-man
Nonononononoooo! CAN-BUS, ODB, forget it all! It makes no difference to the principles of how an engine makes power. The VXR is known to have a different turbo and different injectors. These were cheaply available as Astra GSi upgrades until Vauxhall clocked on and upped the prices.
An engine makes power based on one important factor. How of the proper air/fuel mixture it can squeeze into the chamber.
Correct mapping is key to this yes, but the fact it runs ODB/I/II/CAN-BUS makes absolutely no difference. CAN-BUS, FWIW, was a standard introduced to integrate the rest of the vehicle electronics with the engine management. It's aint new, either. Bosch have been doing it for years, and Ford have been regulating the Focus and Mondeo alternator output using it since the days of the Romans.
0.6bar is about 8psi. The engine produces 75bhp with 1bar (that's atmospheric on an NA engine). In theory, to produce 150bhp, you're going to need 1bar of boost.
Think about it, please. I don't doubt this is a fantastic kit. A good power hike for decent money. But 158bhp? No chance. I'd say @ 0.6 bar, revised management and inlet, you're pushing 135bhp, tops.
vxr engine has many many differences to standard z20let-however the software can be put in ecu very simply. producing same power?no. but not far off.
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
User status: Offline
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If this car had been built in Brazil, no-one would have questioned it.
There's a bloke who comes on here, with a Turbo 1.0, with well over 100bhp.
WITH STANDARD INTERNALS.
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bubble
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
If this car had been built in Brazil, no-one would have questioned it.
There's a bloke who comes on here, with a Turbo 1.0, with well over 100bhp.
WITH STANDARD INTERNALS.
i refer back to my earlier post-dahatsu however you spell it. 1,3 turbo 130bhp standard internals.
yakshemach
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Nic Barnes
Member
Registered: 5th Apr 04
Location: nowhere near ginger people
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by g-man
Nonononononoooo! CAN-BUS, ODB, forget it all! It makes no difference to the principles of how an engine makes power. The VXR is known to have a different turbo and different injectors. These were cheaply available as Astra GSi upgrades until Vauxhall clocked on and upped the prices.
An engine makes power based on one important factor. How of the proper air/fuel mixture it can squeeze into the chamber.
Correct mapping is key to this yes, but the fact it runs ODB/I/II/CAN-BUS makes absolutely no difference. CAN-BUS, FWIW, was a standard introduced to integrate the rest of the vehicle electronics with the engine management. It's aint new, either. Bosch have been doing it for years, and Ford have been regulating the Focus and Mondeo alternator output using it since the days of the Romans.
0.6bar is about 8psi. The engine produces 75bhp with 1bar (that's atmospheric on an NA engine). In theory, to produce 150bhp, you're going to need 1bar of boost.
Think about it, please. I don't doubt this is a fantastic kit. A good power hike for decent money. But 158bhp? No chance. I'd say @ 0.6 bar, revised management and inlet, you're pushing 135bhp, tops.
remember, we are assuming a lot of this though. nobody knows what the engine is or can confirm its running 0.6 bar, its maybe running more.
also point to add. do we know what the turbo is? or the spec of it? 0.6 bar isnt technically the same when we refer to say a kkk16 or a t304 like i run. i run less boost on the t304 to make more power than the kkk16 did.
thats another factor we are overlooking
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g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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1.3 and 130bhp. That's MORE displacement with LESS power.
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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i wud piss myself if this vehicle went to like 15 rolling roads and made 160bhp on each one!! ha ha ha
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bubble
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by g-man
1.3 and 130bhp. That's MORE displacement with LESS power.
its also diesel,smaller turbo and at a lower rpm.
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g-man
Member
Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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OK OK. I entered this debate on the assumption that the original vehicle was running 158bhp with a bolt on kit. The kit in question running 0.6bar, and standard internals.
I'm more than willing to accept a 1.2 can take 160bhp. Reliably? No. On 0.6bar? No.
Drop the compression, starting blowing at over 1bar and up the fuelling and I'll disgress. I don't believe, for a second, the standard 1.2 engine with bolt on kit puts out that power.
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bubble
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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oooooooooooh i got a brilliant way of thinking here!!!!
a aaa battery can give the same amount of power as a pp9 battery over the same length of time!!!!
figure that fucker out!
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by bubblevaux
i wud piss myself if this vehicle went to like 15 rolling roads and made 160bhp on each one!! ha ha ha
me too 
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bubble
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Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
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the 5.0 v8s in the 70s made 240bhp. what do they make now. 400-450bhp?
technology.
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g-man
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Registered: 26th Feb 06
Location: East Kilbride
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Batteries? Excuse me, we're talking engines here. Volumetric efficiency, turbos, petrol, diesel etc. Not lead, alkaline and Ni-mH etc.
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bubble
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 04
Location: Darwin, NT Australia.
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by g-man
Batteries? Excuse me, we're talking engines here. Volumetric efficiency, turbos, petrol, diesel etc. Not lead, alkaline and Ni-mH etc.
simply putting forward an example of how something small can produce the power of a bigger equivalent.
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