Olsrey
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Registered: 13th Jan 07
Location: Bradford Drives: LET Vectra B
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IIRC Its under the inlet manifold where the orange circle thing is I drew 
[Edited on 18-09-2007 by Olsrey]
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deano87
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Registered: 21st Oct 06
Location: Bedfordshire Drives: Ford Fiesta
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Would this work on a 12v? Remove the airbox etc and place the sock filter near the AFM? 
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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that's really poor standard design...
but just whacking a filter on there at the back of the engine is gonna suffer BADLY from heat soak...
yeh it'll make power on a RR with the bonnet up, but in reality with the bonnet down it'll just be sucking boiling hot air. You'd probably actually lose power with the bonnet closed.
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Robin
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Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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The standard design was intentionally poor Paul, Vauxhall planned it that way to stop it making too much power to work with the rest of the range.
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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i thought that was more down to the design of the cast metal inlet rather then the plastic pipe 
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Robin
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Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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location of the TB really, so a combination of both platic pipe and inlet assembly I suppose
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Vaux Lad
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Registered: 15th Dec 04
Location: Stoke-on-Trent
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The plastic pipe and the upper inlet is what robs it of power. The lower inlet aint bad, as the runners are straight, right to the valves.
Hence the gain you see with a lexmaul inlet, that keeps the plastic pipe, but replaces the upper inlet.
The pipe was put in place to restrict it further, and reduce noise from the throttle body.
[Edited on 19-09-2007 by Vaux Lad]
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Daimo B
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Registered: 20th Mar 00
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
The standard design was intentionally poor Paul, Vauxhall planned it that way to stop it making too much power to work with the rest of the range.
You know about the GSi original power on the C16XE
Revised cams and totally revised inlet system made it more drivable and better on fuel.
I.E What Robin says is right. Its was intentionally designed like that.
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Dave A
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Registered: 10th Dec 03
Location: County Durham
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
that's really poor standard design...
but just whacking a filter on there at the back of the engine is gonna suffer BADLY from heat soak...
yeh it'll make power on a RR with the bonnet up, but in reality with the bonnet down it'll just be sucking boiling hot air. You'd probably actually lose power with the bonnet closed.
the heat soak thing you mention is a myth, when we run cars on the dyno we measure intake temps and they are taken into account on the dyno graphs.
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Steve
Premium Member
Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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even if you measure intake temperatures youve still got the bonnet open the car hasnt been running for ages, sat at lights etc for heat soak to build up
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betrayed
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Registered: 29th Aug 06
Location: newcastle
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how long do you sit at traffic lights for....?
am trying this did you get these in stock dave? 
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Vaux Lad
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Registered: 15th Dec 04
Location: Stoke-on-Trent
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Yes the heat will build up at traffic lights, but once moving, within 30seconds its back down again.
And a slight decrease in power wont matter sitting at some traffic lights,lol.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave A
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
that's really poor standard design...
but just whacking a filter on there at the back of the engine is gonna suffer BADLY from heat soak...
yeh it'll make power on a RR with the bonnet up, but in reality with the bonnet down it'll just be sucking boiling hot air. You'd probably actually lose power with the bonnet closed.
the heat soak thing you mention is a myth, when we run cars on the dyno we measure intake temps and they are taken into account on the dyno graphs.
idiot... I said if the car is on the dyno, with it's bonnet open it's not the same as on the road (Where heat soak would happen)...
On the road, you sit with your bonnet down, heat gathers and builds underneathe the bonnet... Heat only goes up... so fills and fills under the bonnet until it's like a boiling oven in the engine bay. Obviously when you start moving air starts passing through a bit, but at the back of the engine (where your sock filter is) it won't get much cooler.
On a dyno with the bonnet up, the heat just escapes, and with a fan blowing over the engine probably reduces any heat soak anyway... plus any heat Goes straight up off the engine, rather than building and moving across the whole engine bay under the bonnet.
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Dave A
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Registered: 10th Dec 03
Location: County Durham
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idiot?
you are the idiot for making assumptions about how the heat travels and accumilates under the bonnet. when testing on the dyno you do run with the bonnet closed with a 20,000 cfm fan that replicates driving at 60mph on the road. when the engine is static for up to 60 seconds the heat build up is only slight and intake temps come back down within seconds of running with the fan on again.
same principal as everyone who uses throttle bodies.
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Warren G
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Registered: 14th May 06
Location: Kent
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i get this 'heat soak' when the cars been idling or moving in slow traffic, and when you boot it it takes for ever to rev up, but once its cooled down again (after 2 minutes or so) its fine, and i have a standard airbox, so cant see any problem with this design, so unless you have a enclosed airfilter thats miles away from the engine bay, your going to get heat soak no matter where the filter is
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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yes there is such a thing as heat soak, and the car will react differently on a dyno to being in different road situations
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Simon_16v
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Registered: 14th Aug 06
Location: Yorkshire
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave A
idiot?
you are the idiot for making assumptions about how the heat travels and accumilates under the bonnet. when testing on the dyno you do run with the bonnet closed with a 20,000 cfm fan that replicates driving at 60mph on the road. when the engine is static for up to 60 seconds the heat build up is only slight and intake temps come back down within seconds of running with the fan on again.
same principal as everyone who uses throttle bodies.
That is quite a good comparison to go against. With tb's you still have all the heat accumalated under the bonnet so as soon as you accelerate you'll suck all the warm air in. I personally cant see any difference so once your moving your fine
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Dave A
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Registered: 10th Dec 03
Location: County Durham
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believe who you want, the person that has tested the heat soak issue on both a dyno and on the road many times with a laptop and wideband thermocouples, or the internet typists that always know best.
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Steve
Premium Member
Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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iv tested heat soak on the road many times with vagcom and maf, and intake temp sensor logging values
testing heat soak on a dyno is pointless
[Edited on 19-09-2007 by Steve]
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Dave A
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Registered: 10th Dec 03
Location: County Durham
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we should marry. and datalog together
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Dave A
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Registered: 10th Dec 03
Location: County Durham
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testing heatsoak on a dyno isnt pointless, its a good way to get a comparison vs real time on the road driving and what happens on the dyno. means you can get a good idea of how a car will respond on the road after being tuned on a dyno.
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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i would say measuring intake temps from various sensors on the road is a better indication though, someone came up with a basic formula once for how much power is effected per 1 degree increase to intake throttle body temperature, i dont know how accurate it is, nor what the formula actually was
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Dave A
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Registered: 10th Dec 03
Location: County Durham
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there is a formula, its relative the the type and size of engine that being run. its not as simple as say 1bhp loss per 5deg of intake temps, not as easy as a simple percentage either. then theres the effects on turbo engines with intercoolers that are different again....
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