MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
^^ same, you will be disappointed with a standard 172.
a fettled one, now that would be different!
|
Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
Yeh I know what your saying MGM.
Strangely I was discussing this with Rob B, (when he said he wanted to get a saxo again and sell his 182 haha!) - he basically said it was the fact he enjoyed being in an underdog car.
A lot of people under estimate a 106 gti on track. I've had countless people telling me to sell it and buy a 205 or clio, yet not once have I had a 205 or a clio pass me yet on track, despite passing many... and I've been on track with loads, with many different specs and drivers.
Now either, I'm just a bloody good driver and can make a 106 gti capable of beating these superior cars. Or perhaps more realistically these superior cars aren't actually as superior as people assume (through prejudgement, past experiences or not actually ever driving my particular car, since it's far from standard).
I actually quite enjoying proving those people that the 106 is as capable on track as many other cars (as people label it a girls car) and not a real 'track car', unlike say the '205'.
I say this is balls, 106 gti is quicker than a 205 in a straight line and handles just as well if not better, it's probably more likely just the fact that often 106 drivers often don't drive as well, or as hard as someone who's track spec'd a purpose built 205 track car.
For example, the typical 106 gti on track will be someone with a 106 gti, fairly standard - daily driver, fancies a bit of track action... and puts it on track, the brakes are standard, suspension near standard and they've never actually been taught the basics of driving on track (believing because they're a capable driver on the road, they can go quick on track).
As such, most go round quite slowly...
205 gti's on track are usually owned people as a 2nd track based car (rather than daily driver) - more aimed at being on track, better suspension, tyres, stripped, brakes etc. and the drivers A ) care less about crashing the car they don't drive daily or just are more willing to push harder, keep throttle longer or brake later or B ) have previous track experience and therefore are more capable drivers.
That imo is why 205 gti's are quicker on average around track than 106 gtis.
In my opinion though, and from my experiences 205s never on a track day have been an issue for me, even gti6/mi16 powered ones, which may be on par, but rarely much faster. and if they are, it doesn't really surprise considering their power / weight.
Now it's possible if I had a 172 cup, I'd be able to drive it fast like I drive my 106 gti and MGM makes a good point that if I improved upon the 172 cup it'd blitz any 106 gti on track with ease driven well.
But, currently I'm not looking for a car to spend loads of money on again, if i buy a new car, I'll be leaving it fairly standard, at least until I have a second daily driver car.
With the LSD now though, considering I'm on standard tyres, I'm amazed at what the 106 gti is capable of.
That said, you could put someone else in my car and they may drive it slowly.
--- So the driver does make a fair difference and included in the driver is how hard they push, as well as their ability. Even if someone is the best driver in the world, to go quickly they need to brake later than everyone else, carry speed, stay on the throttle down the straights etc etc. Nurburgring really highlights this, as there are parts on that track if you keep your foot down you'll be doing well over 140 mph down hill, knowing you have a sharp bend coming up and then a uphill... now to be the quickest you have to be committed, and to be honest I just don't want that risk (can only picture myself losing it at 140 mph and being a mess) so start taking the foot off the throttle as the speeds get to 120 or whatever... someone else may of stopped accelerating at 100 and someone kept flat to 140. That makes a big difference throughout the track and basically means that a shit car can beat a awesome car. Hence going quick at nurburgring is 25% the car you drive, 25% your driving ability and 50% how big your balls are and how hard you are pushing.
This last factor is imo less on smaller tracks, as there'll be less corners to brake early for and rarely will you reach that level of top speed, so you can just keep it nailed... but still, this makes a big difference.
Bottom line is...
Probably if I had a 172 cup, I'd beat any 106 gti on track.
If I keep my 106 gti, I'll possibly beat or stay level with any 172 cup on track.
If I had a 172 cup and tweaked it, I'd beat all, but be poor 
Sorry for the rant, but it makes me laugh when people tell me to sell my car for something 'superior', when I'm fairly sure on track I'd be no slower.
[Edited on 07-04-2008 by Paul_J]
|
jr
Member
Registered: 20th May 02
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
|
so keep the 106, develop it a bit
the reason your fast paul is its a good car with a very capable driver, dont sell it
|
MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
capable driver, and dare i say it with a bit less to lose? I know that as long as my clio owes me money and I need it day to day, I won't push it to the point where I'm 50/50 in a corner.
I'm swiftly going off the idea of 205's as a track car. It's been done, and other more modern alternatives are quickly becoming more affordable. A decent 205 now comes at a premium. I'm fully expecting there to shortly be a glut of Saxo VTS/R track cars.
[Edited on 07-04-2008 by MGM]
|
jr
Member
Registered: 20th May 02
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
|
very true MGM, what i cant wait for is seeing the people on here develop from people that give the car death in an industrial estate in basidon (lot to loose) to being slow on track, and improving as WR goes on
will be intresting
|
MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
ah come on, the true test of a driver is surely the Cranes Farm Road time attack should be WR's first even imo 
|
jr
Member
Registered: 20th May 02
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
|
im not aware of that one, but sounds like the berkshire version of the crossways test track, both difficult challanging "circuits"
|
MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
I've not been back to Basildon in time, I grew up there, it's probably all about Bas Vegas these days
I am informed by my wiser, more knowedgeable sources that the MI engine is wider, taller and the newest ones are 15 years old. and i quote "even the 205 boys have moved on from that engine now"
|
Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
quote:
MGM says:
dare i say it with a bit less to lose? I know that as long as my clio owes me money and I need it day to day, I won't push it to the point where I'm 50/50 in a corner.
MGM I can honestly say I've never ever been close to stacking my car on track, not even 50/50 in a corner... not even going around nurburgring.
on road err...  maybe I pushed it a bit when i was younger...
but on track the car literally is uncrashable (as long as there is no mechanical failure).
Infact, often if you drive it more committed the car responds better / sticks better on track - than if you go into bends and go off the throttle or touch the brakes...
Imo, the simple rules of...
1 )
On approach to the bend, get in the correct position (aim for the turn in point (usually on the outside)).
2 ) Brake straight and hard... better to brake lots and go in slow, than be going in too quick for the corner.
3 ) At the late turn in point, get back on the throttle slightly and turn into the corner, aiming for the apex.
4 ) maintain constant balanced throttle throughout, not too much to understeer, but enough to keep car controlled and if possible accelerate through the bend
5 ) usually on hitting the apex, or when possible, start increasing the power and unwind the steering, allowing the car naturally to move over to the outside of the bend (generally through the power being put down).
6 ) keep foot solidly planted on the throttle until next corner appears and repeat.
^^ That's all I ever do, pretty basic driving style, not wreckless, not on the limit - v.safe. It's like painting by numbers.
Imo, the people who are unsafe, are the one's who don't do the above, and do the following.
1) they approach the corner, but are sitting in the middle of the track, not moving over to the outside, rather heading slightly fot the inside.
2) they're coasting in already off power, but now start braking lightly, not really scrubbing off all the speed, but just a little bit over a long period of time / distance. Often they are still braking when turning slightly (moving across to the turn in point on the brakes, or turning into the bend - thus causing car unstability).
3) they turn into the corner early, carrying possibly too much speed.
4) they may hit the apex, and hug the corner all the way around if going slow - they're probably off the power and thus the car feels unsafe / on the limit (as it has no real driving wheels holding it on the road).
or 4) they are carrying a lot of speed into the corner, their early turn in point is sending them on a shallow line, making them go out wide. They lift off mid bend or brake mid bend unsettling the car, making it completely feel on edge.
5) they then accelerate away from the bend, but then come off the throttle slightly as the speeds get too high and they get uncomfortable (once again being off throttle is likely to unsettle the car and make it FEEL unsafe / unsettled, compared to keeping on the throttle).
6 ) they repeat, heading for the next bend off power coasting in and not braking hard enough or at the correct line.
^ this is what most track novices do, and this is what causes most spins and feeling of being at the limit, when they're infact not. Which is why then when someone goes flying past them, they think the driver of that car must be at the limit and a nutter, where in actual fact it's the complete reverse.
I do agree MGM your car is more valuable than mine, but then think about it this way, you have a full time job and probably more money in the bank than me, a unemployed, student with a large amount of student debt. So I'm not really wanting to stack my car any time soon, especially since any insurance (if i got anything at all) would only pay out market value and not value of the mods.
[Edited on 07-04-2008 by Paul_J]
|
jr
Member
Registered: 20th May 02
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
|
theres a few 205 i know of now running around with the gti-6 engine, down to the mi "week" bottom end
saying that, ive been told more than once that xe bottom ends can be used with mi heads
|
MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
I do agree MGM your car is more valuable than mine, but then think about it this way, you have a full time job and probably more money in the bank than me, a unemployed, student with a large amount of student debt. So I'm not really wanting to stack my car any time soon, especially since any insurance (if i got anything at all) would only pay out market value and not value of the mods.
[Edited on 07-04-2008 by Paul_J]
I'm buying a flat in Reading, you're probably better off than I am to be fair
I know what you mean though. the limiting factor in that car is me, not the car. most accidents are caused by inexperienced drivers (on track) changing their minds' half-way through a maneuver.
|
MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by jr
theres a few 205 i know of now running around with the gti-6 engine, down to the mi "week" bottom end
saying that, ive been told more than once that xe bottom ends can be used with mi heads
as i mentioned earlier, the MI is well known for oil surge issues because it mounts at an angle in the 205 bay, otherwise it wont fit. the 6 engine is flavour of the month at the moment, but the XE bottom end thing is a new one on me, have to admit
|
Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
Yeh MGM, seriously don't think I'm having a go at you, or your car. Your a nice bloke 
Just the two things that wind me up more than anything is:
1 ) People saying I'm a dangerous driver / only drive quick as I don't care if i stack the car
and
2 ) People saying the 106 gti is not a capable track car, compared to x/y/z when i often prove it's just as capable as many others
The only thing with the 106 gti as a point of reference, is that even i don't know what a standard one was like any more. I've had mine for over 3 years now, and for a large proportion of that time, it's been cam'd etc, on bilstein suspension eibachs, wider 15" vts wheels and lately LSD.
My car compared to a standard or nearly standard 106 gti will be naturally completely different and really I'm not defending 106 gti's, but rather my car.
|
Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
p.s. on reference to the above, a standard 106 gti will not stand a chance against a standard 172 cup 
|
MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
no it wont at all. and standard, as a track car the 106 gti is a pile of poo. it feels unexpectedly jittery. psychologically, you expect to go out and kick arse...and you don't
don't think i was suggesting anything about you or your car paul, i've seen you on track a few times (usually as you go past :lol to know you know what you're talking about
[Edited on 07-04-2008 by MGM]
|
Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
yes I agree 100% standard 106 gti is shite on track
and 172 cup is actually v.competent straight out of the box.
To be honest MGM, I know you know what you're talking about too, you've been on track plenty and you do have a v.good point that a 172 cup would be a better track car than my car and a better basis overall for progress. I personally do think I could probably drive a 172 cup quicker than my car currently, but that's mainly due to the extra torque / power down the straights, think it'd be fairly even through the bends themselves thanks to the LSD etc.
What usually annoys me is the 'pub stat generation' who have never been on track and just because on paper a standard 172 cup would thrash a standard 106 gti, MY actual car has no chance.
Take for example my mate matt, who has a focus st170 who is coming to combe but sadly not on the same session and believes his car would rape a 106 gti like mine Just because mine is a poxy french unreliable 106 hatch with a 1.6 engine and standard 120 bhp and his is a good focus with 170 bhp and a 2.0 engine and the 'st170 badge'  Not to mention it'd be his first time on track in his car (he's done a driver experience day at the circuit).
I know for a fact what the situation would be in reality, but people who've never been on track don't have a clue
they are truely the ones that wind me up  and as such I feel i need a good car out of the box, so i don't have to keep explaining why it'd be quicker or proving it. On the other hand that's less fun / challenge.
|
MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
I think you're going to find that more power is less of a big deal that you think and you'd get more of a challenge from a car that delivers the power differently
|
Butler
Member
Registered: 2nd Jun 05
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
The o/s mount is in the wrong place. Most people bodge it but even so the engine sits really far forward which is obviously bad for weight distribution. Ryan cooke on rallye register is going all out with his conversion, Bic is in the process too since he sold the longmans engine.
|
Butler
Member
Registered: 2nd Jun 05
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
106 GTI is not shite on track as standard, its good when you consider any other standard hot hatchs out the box.
Paul I think for what you want you should be looking at a robin hood or elise while youre still young.
|
Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
what's a robin hood?
the only cheap elises are 120 bhp model on the old k series engine. imo they just won't hack it on track days, yes fun, but since track days you can only pass on the straights, you'll never get past some cars which may go slow through the bends (you catch up and sit behind in your elise) and then blast away down the straights, meaning you can't overtake and just get bogged down all the way round.
the 140-160 bhp s1 elises are too pricey.
|
Butler
Member
Registered: 2nd Jun 05
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/445024.htm
|
MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Butler
106 GTI is not shite on track as standard, its good when you consider any other standard hot hatchs out the box.
Paul I think for what you want you should be looking at a robin hood or elise while youre still young.
fair, fair, should have put my point in context the 106gti as standard is better on track than its contemporaries, but it's not quite the animal its made out to be in some quarters
only problem with a robin hood is that it wont be usable day to day.
|
Butler
Member
Registered: 2nd Jun 05
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
Usable, if youre willing to compensate!
|
MGM
Member
Registered: 16th Mar 08
Location: Reading, UK
User status: Offline
|
oh totally, they are just better when messed with
|
Norledge
Member
Registered: 17th Mar 08
Location: Cheltenhamshire
User status: Offline
|
Now i was thinking about the whole 106/Saxo/Clio/Whatever the fuck you want trackcar the other day.
At the end of the day a 106 is just a 106... not easily tuneable above 200bhp/tonne, not the best handling (don't get me wrong... i love them but there are better things out there), and the way prices are holding not the cheapest... and it's been done a million times, and as alex says will be done A LOT more in the future... and you have to put up with 90% of the owners thinking theyu are the be all and end all of the best car in the universe!
Clio's... from passengering in the slightly fettled one MGM has, its faster, more stable in the corners (coilovers may help there), but its lardy as hell.
205's?? The problem with these... think about it... its an over 20 year old design... and true their cheap and an awesome drive, but it' been done... and their ugly
At the end of the day all cars will have ups and downs... out of those 3 i know if i could afford it i'd have a 17poo and strip the nackers out of it... i just couldnt handle driving a car that weighs over a tonne
Honda shity is the way forward
And back on topic... yes an mi will fit into a 106, but its a taller, wider engine so has to be uber bodged on the mounts to fit... sending the weight of the block well in front of the front wheels, meaning hoooooooge balance problems. totally not worth it IMO...
As said surge is a MAJOR problem... even baffling the sump wont totall fix the problem... then theres the option of the gti6, which weighs twices as much.
|
|
