Ditch
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Registered: 29th Nov 02
Location: St Albans Drives: JDM Celica GT4 WRC
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my ex girlfriend has a Mini One which is the bottom of the range, was a pleasure to drive, everything where it should be, nice big BMW accelerator pedal, not that hers was particularly quick (90+ hp i think?) but all in all a sound little motor.
The only thing i hate is the big speedo and the noise that the PAS makes is really bad from outside the car. sounds like a milk float trying to get up a steep hill! 
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Phil321
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Registered: 10th Mar 01
Location: Manchester
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quote:
Originally posted by sxi boy
id have a civic type r as theyre faster and handle better
Is this a joke. The Mini is probably the best handling hot hatch available at the moment!
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elfunkyo
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Registered: 25th Mar 02
Location: Mighty Geordie Country
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Cooper S is a nice car but I'd take a CTR any day over one of them.
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Chris@Speedfreex
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Registered: 24th Mar 02
Location: west mids, corsa C20LET
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i wudnt class a mini and a CTR in the same catogory to behonest
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elfunkyo
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Registered: 25th Mar 02
Location: Mighty Geordie Country
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil321
quote:
Originally posted by sxi boy
id have a civic type r as theyre faster and handle better
Is this a joke. The Mini is probably the best handling hot hatch available at the moment!
Every article I've read seem to say the CTR is the better handling of the two.
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Phil321
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Registered: 10th Mar 01
Location: Manchester
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It says a lot about today's hot hatch market that SEAT needs to launch its new Leon Cupra R at all. After all, the standard Leon Cupra already has 180bhp, a six-speed 'box and a mouth-watering price tag of just £14,995. Problem is that the Leon has been all but forgotten. Honda's hardcore Civic Type-R has upped the ante power-wise and the Mini Cooper S has shown how rewarding a driver-focussed hatch can be.
The rather anonymous Leon looks a bit soft in comparison, which simply won't do at all. That's why photographer Kenny P, designer Chee and I are waiting beside a sun-drenched field for the arrival of Roger Green in SEAT's 210bhp answer to the new breed of hot hatch.
You probably know how highly we rate the Cooper S; you may also be aware of our reservations about the banzai Honda, but today is a new day and both cars will have a fight on their hands when the Cupra R arrives. More powerful than either, loaded with equipment and priced very competitively at £16,995, it should be more than capable of winning a new following. The tuneless bark of VAG Group's four-cylinder turbocharged engine overlaid with the rush of rapidly dumped boost heralds the beginning of the fight and as the screaming yellow SEAT pulls up beside our party it's already scoring points.
There's certainly no danger of the Cupra R being overlooked. From the deep front spoiler and sculpted sills to the dramatically bulging rear bumper, the ultimate Leon looks ready to pounce on the Honda and maul the cute little Mini. The 18-inch alloys, gleaming red Brembo callipers and oval tailpipe further enhance the Leon's aggressive appearance. It's a cohesive job that lends the Cupra R real presence. If it was black I reckon the Mini would scurry off in fear of its life. The interior carries over the sporting intent of the pumped-up styling with excellent - though expensively optional - Recaros all round and high quality materials. Only the grey dials spoil things by looking slightly cheap.
SEAT has done an equally thorough job with the engine and suspension. Twin intercoolers and substantially modified inlet and exhaust manifolds have liberated 30bhp from the 1.8-litre turbocharged four of the Leon Cupra. Peak power of 210bhp arrives at 5800rpm whilst torque swells to 199lb ft at 2100rpm and hangs around all the way to 5000rpm.
Channelling all this power to the road is no easy task and SEAT's 'Agile Chassis Concept' (first seen in the new Ibiza) gets its toughest workout to date. The rear suspension is lowered by 6mm whilst the springs have actually been softened both front and back, but are now kept in check by more assertive dampers. SEAT has revised the geometry settings and added a new subframe at the front to improve torsional stiffness. According to the blurb, passive rear steer has also been enhanced to encourage a neutral cornering stance and improve the Leon's ability to carry out rapid direction changes.
Green jumps out of the Cupra R looking pretty pleased with himself - I think it's time to get down to some serious driving. First port of call is Bedford Autodrome to get some photos in the bag and find out what these cars have to offer in extremis. A glass-smooth race track is no place to make definitive judgements on the finer points of damping and ultimate body control but it can give us clues as to the lengths to which the engineers have gone to create a true driver's car - a chance to find out what happens when the tyres stop sticking and start sliding.
The Leon is the heaviest car of the trio and I think it'll have its work cut out to match the pace and poise of the lighter competition on the track. The Civic impressed us on track at last month's Trackday Car of the Year feature thanks to its keen chassis and blistering straight-line speed. On the tight North circuit at the Bedford Autodrome these qualities remain but the numb steering with its inconsistent assistance still casts doubts during committed cornering. After a stint for the benefit of Kenny's lens, Green is picking up mixed messages: 'The steering's weighting is inconsistent, which muddles the feedback and makes it feel artificial. The acceleration is great, though. It pulls well in the mid-range and becomes nothing short of violent when the VTEC comes on cam above 6000rpm.'
There's certainly no doubting the Civic's performance advantage, and it's a shame the chassis can't reach the same heights. Understeer builds without you knowing too much about it and although it can be quelled with a lift of the throttle and even transformed into substantial oversteer on the wide expanses of a track, there's still the nagging worry that the set-up won't translate convincingly to road driving.
Jumping straight into the Leon after the Type-R and pounding the track reveals a few surprises. First is that the Leon can brake later and generate higher cornering forces than the Civic, though that's largely thanks to its enormous 225/40 P Zero Rossos. Rather more surprising is the SEAT's composure and exploitability when grip runs out and handling comes in to play. If you get it right, the Cupra R nails its nose to the apex and remains perfectly neutral. Now lift the throttle and feel all that weight start to make a move. Soon the tail is tightening your line and you'll need a good dose of opposite lock. But it all happens progressively and feels perfectly natural. The Leon's chassis has a rare ability to smooth the transition from grip to slip and back again that makes even the Type-R feel snatchy and a bit ham-fisted. It's an amazing performance and a shot across the bows of the Cooper S.
Now, if you're one of those people who simply refuses to believe that the Mini is a real driver's car, I'd ask you to please stop reading now. You'll only write in to complain that I'm lying and get all hot and bothered and it's frankly a bit embarrassing. Okay, now that they've cleared off, I can tell the rest of you about the Cooper S. On track it blows the Civic away and makes even the fluent Leon feel slow-witted.
Turn-in is simply electric and the cornering is then shared out equally between all four wheels. The Cooper S will understeer if driven carelessly but generally feels absolutely glued to the track. Lift-off oversteer isn't as spectacular as in the two bigger cars but the S is so much more efficient. As the nose digs in the rear takes on the perfect slip angle (just enough for you to wind off a dab of lock) and the little Mini drifts benignly and accurately onto the next straight.
Green is positively gushing after a few hot laps: 'It dives for the apex with all four tyres working hard together. Grip levels are high and so is adjustability. Just a quick fine-tuning of the throttle brings the S into line and it always remains poised. So much so, you try harder the next time, you push your luck, take a few liberties, but still you can make the turn.' Like it or not, the Mini has a world-class chassis and the Cooper S's extra power has brought it to life.
Kenny P is happy and reluctantly we leave Dr Palmer's playground in search of roads that will provide a further test of these cars' mettle. Predictably we end up on an old favourite: the B660. A world away from the groomed tarmac of the Autodrome, the B660 jigs and weaves, writhes and crests and leaves no handling trait left uncovered. It is one of the most concentrated tests of any car that we know this side of the Welsh border, a place where practicalities are forgotten and pure undiluted thrills are sought. If the Leon is to become our favourite hatch it will have to tame the B660 and eclipse both the Honda and the Cooper S.
I opt for the Cupra R for the dash across to the B660 and soon settle into a rhythm. Despite the monster wheel and tyre combination, the Leon smoothes out the worst lumps and bumps admirably and is rarely deflected from its chosen line. Only the steering suggests that 18-inch wheels may be slight overkill. It feels dead and too weighty. There's nothing wrong with the speed of the rack (reduced from 2.8 to 2.5 turns lock-to-lock), nor its precision, but it feels stodgy and unnecessarily heavy. At least it's consistently weighty.
The gearchange is also a slight disappointment. The Leon has always suffered from a slightly loose shift and the Cupra R is no exception. In the company of the super-slick Honda shift it feels compromised. Once you're in the thick of the action, though, you'll forget about the slightly awkward 'box and concentrate on the dizzying pace that you're carrying through all manner of corners. Its combination of deft damping, stonking mid-range urge, confident braking and sheer lateral grip gives the Leon a cross-country gait that a Civic driver will find hard to match. While the muscular Leon allows you to relax and crest the wave of torque, the Civic demands that you get to that VTEC zone. The Cupra R delivers from 2000rpm through to 5000rpm with a real vigour that is sustained to the red line, but never reaches a dizzying peak. It doesn't need to - the Civic is already falling back.
The Type-R is a car of conflicting ingredients. The engine begs to be thrashed and the snappy 'box encourages gratuitous gearchanges but the chassis starts to feel stretched when you're accessing the full might of the engine's performance. On smooth roads the Honda rides well and feels perfectly stable but as the surface deteriorates so too does the Civic's composure. Short, sharp vertical movements trigger an uncomfortable skittishness that ultimately leads you to back off. Green puts his finger on it neatly: 'The Civic's pace on B-roads is tempered by a tendency to bump around uncomfortably. It almost feels under-damped, and the whole thing can begin to get a little ragged, especially in tighter turns where wheelspin becomes part of the equation too.' In a straight line the Civic is king but that's not what evo looks for in a hot hatch. The Leon beats it for involvement, poise and real-world speed. If you've got a family and you're looking for a practical car that can deliver when the kids aren't around, the Cupra R makes a very strong case for itself.
If rear seats aren't such a priority, then the Cupra R has a harder task on its hands because it finds itself fighting a car that is rewriting hot hatch history. Once you forget the cynical styling and start to evaluate the Cooper S on its merits every other hatch starts to look decidedly ordinary. On the B660 the Mini feels alive to every input. Green is adamant that the Cooper S is one of the greats: 'The chassis is right up there with the best hot hatches I've driven,' he enthuses after another lengthy drive. That uncanny adjustability that made track driving such a delight translates onto the road far more faithfully than in the other two, and unlike some old-school hatches, the tail of the Mini works for you rather than against, without twitchiness. True, some owners will never experience what happens when you ask the S to perform over testing roads. But for people like us this car has hidden depths just waiting to be exploited.
On the negative side the Cooper S six-speed gearbox isn't quite as slick as the lesser models' five-speeder and the ride can get uncomfortably bouncy on poor surfaces. On the worst of these the Leon handles itself with more composure - but it's not enough to rob the Cooper S of victory. On the track the Mini laid down its marker and then proceeded to open up the gap when we hit the road. The Civic's appeal - raw speed - seems one dimensional by comparison. The Leon Cupra R gets closer - it handles the most testing British roads with aplomb and never feels inert. On track it was the most tail-happy yet remained friendly at all times and on the road only its steering clouded the excellent dynamic package. If you need four usable seats you won't regret buying the Leon. But right now the Cooper S has staked a claim to be one of the truly great hot hatches. It's the real deal. Question is, can you bring yourself to believe it?
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sxi boy
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Registered: 11th Apr 02
Location: north east Drives: clio 182
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil321
quote:
Originally posted by sxi boy
id have a civic type r as theyre faster and handle better
Is this a joke. The Mini is probably the best handling hot hatch available at the moment!
see autocar magazine from 30th april this year
they said that the civic is much better
anyway i dont believe that the cooper S is anywhere near to being the most complete hot hatch of all time, EVO magazine claim that this honour belongs to the clio williams
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Phil321
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Registered: 10th Mar 01
Location: Manchester
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Cooper Svs Cupra R vs Type R ^^^^
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Chris@Speedfreex
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Registered: 24th Mar 02
Location: west mids, corsa C20LET
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clio williams, brilliant car, and to be honest do agree wiv this claim
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Phil321
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Registered: 10th Mar 01
Location: Manchester
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Yes, the Williams is more of a true hot hatch.
BTW is nice to see non personal car related discussions/arguments on this board!
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Chris@Speedfreex
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Registered: 24th Mar 02
Location: west mids, corsa C20LET
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agree phil totally. board is alotbetter l8ly aint it
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Ojc
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Registered: 14th Nov 00
Location: Reading: Drives : Clio 197
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Cooper S is 0-60 6.8 seconds 138mph.
Its very fast, I would prefer that to a Type-R, I hate Type-R's.
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Tom
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Registered: 3rd Apr 02
Location: Wirral, Merseyside
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Any need for the massive copy and paste
Seat cupra r will basically have the tt 225 engine i've heard.
And who ever said type r and cooper s aren't comapribel...how not?
Out of the two i'd have the ctr as it aint as girly.
But i'd still rather have a mint williams clio  and the change
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elfunkyo
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Registered: 25th Mar 02
Location: Mighty Geordie Country
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Wounldn't mind an Integra Type R myself EVO magazine rates the as one of the best fwd cars of all time.
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Dr Pepper
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Registered: 21st Sep 02
Location: oxford Drives Renault Clio RS200
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yes -it is a hot hatch
no- its not the quickest in a straight line- have to use high revs to enjoy the cay
yes -it is awesome round corners
no -its not a 'mini'- i still love the styling though
yes- its interior options are the best out of any hot hatch on the market
yes- it is highly tunable
yes- it is expensive to buy and insure- why im getting a cooper with full spec for the mo
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sxi boy
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Registered: 11th Apr 02
Location: north east Drives: clio 182
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quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
Cooper S is 0-60 6.8 seconds 138mph.
Its very fast, I would prefer that to a Type-R, I hate Type-R's.
EVO magazine tested the cooper s at 0-60 in 7.7 secs and 0-100 in 21.3 secs
CTR - 0-60 in 6.8 secs, 0-100 in 16.9 secs
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Phil321
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Registered: 10th Mar 01
Location: Manchester
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They are, but they're not a hot hatch. I just pasted the article as its good interesting reading on the subject, taken from EVO mag BTW.
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sxi boy
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Registered: 11th Apr 02
Location: north east Drives: clio 182
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quote:
Originally posted by elfunkyo
Wounldn't mind an Integra Type R myself EVO magazine rates the as one of the best fwd cars of all time.
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Phil321
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Registered: 10th Mar 01
Location: Manchester
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quote:
Originally posted by sxi boy
quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
Cooper S is 0-60 6.8 seconds 138mph.
Its very fast, I would prefer that to a Type-R, I hate Type-R's.
EVO magazine tested the cooper s at 0-60 in 7.7 secs and 0-100 in 21.3 secs
CTR - 0-60 in 6.8 secs, 0-100 in 16.9 secs
This is true. Although there is soooo much more to consider. Have you read the article. What did you think? Cupra R sounds nice, wouldn't mind a drive.
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elfunkyo
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Registered: 25th Mar 02
Location: Mighty Geordie Country
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil321
They are, but they're not a hot hatch. I just pasted the article as its good interesting reading on the subject, taken from EVO mag BTW.
What issue of EVO was that article taken from just I've got apile of them in the house and cant remember seeing those 3 compared must just of been a month I missed I suppose
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sxi boy
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Registered: 11th Apr 02
Location: north east Drives: clio 182
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil321
quote:
Originally posted by sxi boy
quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
Cooper S is 0-60 6.8 seconds 138mph.
Its very fast, I would prefer that to a Type-R, I hate Type-R's.
EVO magazine tested the cooper s at 0-60 in 7.7 secs and 0-100 in 21.3 secs
CTR - 0-60 in 6.8 secs, 0-100 in 16.9 secs
This is true. Although there is soooo much more to consider. Have you read the article. What did you think? Cupra R sounds nice, wouldn't mind a drive.
yeh unfortunately ive not driven any of them, id love to be able to thrash em rnd a track for a day to make me own mind up like 
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Phil321
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Registered: 10th Mar 01
Location: Manchester
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It was taken from issue 47 but if you go to http://www.evo.co.uk then go to road test archives, you can read ever article from every issue. There are loads. Keep you occupied for days!
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elfunkyo
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Registered: 25th Mar 02
Location: Mighty Geordie Country
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I've had a go of both the CTR and Cooper S both of which were very nice cars to drive just prefered the the rawness of the CTR, the Cooper S was a little to refined for me.
As for the Cupra R cant comment as I haven't drove one but I've heard nothing but good reviews about them.
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elfunkyo
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Registered: 25th Mar 02
Location: Mighty Geordie Country
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil321
It was taken from issue 47 but if you go to http://www.evo.co.uk then go to road test archives, you can read ever article from every issue. There are loads. Keep you occupied for days!
Cheers mate
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sxi boy
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Registered: 11th Apr 02
Location: north east Drives: clio 182
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil321
It was taken from issue 47 but if you go to http://www.evo.co.uk then go to road test archives, you can read ever article from every issue. There are loads. Keep you occupied for days!
ive got that issue
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