Dave A
USER UNDER INVESTIGATION - DO NOT TRADE
Registered: 10th Dec 03
Location: County Durham
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if you dont know what you are doing its hard enough with a good ecu such as an omex. Megasquirt is even more complicated.
I use and map all types of management on a dily basis such as Emerald (my current favourite, its fantastic!) omex, dta, mbe etc..... Megasquirt when built properly is about as good as some but its far more complicated and far more likely to go wrong. for the sake of an extra £250 for a 'proper' ecu its a pointless thing to buy. Lots of tuners dislike mapping it, lots wont map it. I now refuse in most cases as more often than not you get problems.
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phil_sutton
Member
Registered: 8th Sep 07
Location: Nottingham
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quote:
Megasquirt when built properly is about as good as some but its far more complicated and far more likely to go wrong. for the sake of an extra £250 for a 'proper' ecu its a pointless thing to buy. Lots of tuners dislike mapping it, lots wont map it. I now refuse in most cases as more often than not you get problems.
and what if you earn £150 a week but still want a fast car and the benefit of aftermarket management?
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Anton2K3
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 03
Location: Peterborough
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I understand what your say Dave. From a business point of view, wouldn't it be good for you to offer the service if no one else is, easy business for you!
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Dave A
USER UNDER INVESTIGATION - DO NOT TRADE
Registered: 10th Dec 03
Location: County Durham
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if you earn £150 a week it doesnt change the fact that the end product isnt as good. I would rather save for an extra 2 months and have years of hassle free motoring than save a few quid and have a 'budget' ecu that may give hassle on a daily basis.
as for me mapping the megasquirt anton, its true that people want it mapped but I charge £60 an hour to map anything. Id rather spend those hours mapping a properly made and designed ecu. Last megasquirt I did it kept switching on and off, kept messing up map files and figures I was inputting kept changing by themselfes. car then comes back to me a week later with more problems, and customer wants it fixing for free as I was last to touch it, truth was that he had a play round and messed things up himself.
Hassle I can do without!
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Anton2K3
Member
Registered: 24th Jan 03
Location: Peterborough
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Yea, as long as you save the files you can burn them to ecu anytime. Also when mapping you need to constantly burn to rom to ensure everything your changing changes. Sounds like he had a poorly built unit, or as you say, messed about with it himself. Cant say I had those problems when i was using it on mine.
But its like learning to map any ecu, once you know the ins and outs of it it'll be easy. Potentially a nice little earner, but as you say, not completely hassle free while you learning the ropes!
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Vaux Lad
Member
Registered: 15th Dec 04
Location: Stoke-on-Trent
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave A
if you dont know what you are doing its hard enough with a good ecu such as an omex. Megasquirt is even more complicated.
Megasquirt is an EXCELLENT system. Unbeatable for the money.
And certainly isn't unreliable at all(its been run on supercharged v6's)
It also has more features than a lot of the "better" ecu's, and is improving all the time as the code is improved.
Reliability problems come down to the initial build, where peope DIYing might get a bad solder joint or something, which gives hassle later on.
Its an ideal system for a cheap engine, and does the job its required to do.
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Limecat
Banned
Registered: 25th Jun 05
Location: The Internet
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
I still think it's the pikey way of doing things, even if you pay someone else to do it, an ECU which you can buy in kit form sounds like a crap idea to me.
So is a Caterham a crap car as it is available in kit form?
quote:
Originally posted by phil_sutton and what if you earn £150 a week but still want a fast car and the benefit of aftermarket management?
If someone earnt £150 a week they would struggle to afford a car, let alone a performance one or something that is tuned and will rape their wallet at the pump.
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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quote:
Originally posted by LETGSI16V
quote:
Originally posted by Robin
I still think it's the pikey way of doing things, even if you pay someone else to do it, an ECU which you can buy in kit form sounds like a crap idea to me.
So is a Caterham a crap car as it is available in kit form?
Yeah, if some monkey bolts it together with no idea of what they're doing.
The thing with a Caterham is that it's all good quality parts, you don't know what you're getting with MS, it could be some old shit transistors from the back of some bloke's shed.
I just don't see the point in skimping on parts, if you're going to do it, do it right, even if it means waiting a while, buying something cheap means you end up spending the money twice, plus maybe more, if it knackers anything when it breaks.
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Limecat
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Registered: 25th Jun 05
Location: The Internet
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
quote:
Originally posted by LETGSI16V
quote:
Originally posted by Robin
I still think it's the pikey way of doing things, even if you pay someone else to do it, an ECU which you can buy in kit form sounds like a crap idea to me.
So is a Caterham a crap car as it is available in kit form?
Yeah, if some monkey bolts it together with no idea of what they're doing.
The thing with a Caterham is that it's all good quality parts, you don't know what you're getting with MS, it could be some old shit transistors from the back of some bloke's shed.
I just don't see the point in skimping on parts, if you're going to do it, do it right, even if it means waiting a while, buying something cheap means you end up spending the money twice, plus maybe more, if it knackers anything when it breaks.
So you have just summarised your own argument with saying it is as good as the person who makes it? The guy starting this thread has said he will buy an off the shelf item, not a self build.
I assume you used to own a Corsa (being presumptious off the avatar), so may I ask what engine, brakes and gearbox you ran as you believe in waiting and buying the best?
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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An off the shelf item with no guarantee, no idea of how good the person who assembled it was, no comeback if it breaks and takes the engine with it, which he was going to map alone, with no experience?
I'm not going to drag this thread off topic by going into detail about my old cars, if you're that concerned, click on the 'garage' link above my post and have a look, the details are all there 
[Edited on 07-12-2007 by Robin]
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Limecat
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Registered: 25th Jun 05
Location: The Internet
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He wasn't going to map it alone though was he, he was going to get it properly mapped by an external party. An external party that funnily enough will not give 'comeback if the engine breaks' as rolling roads operate at owners risk. It took my uncle a lot of time and effort (and a lot of costly evidence) to show that it was a crap rolling road operator that fudged his 252.8 BHP Duratec (that was the figure whilst playing with a base map on a 0 mile build) to get anything back.
Rolling roads just go 'We didn't build the engine - you did'
Do you have any idea of how good the person is who makes ECU's for other companies? No.
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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Most ECU manufacturers offer a guarantee, so if the ECU breaks, you get a replacement. I doubt some bloke in his shed would do the same.
I also doubt some bloke in his shed is as good as someone who works for a company who's sole line of business is engine management.
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
User status: Offline
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Anyway, why are you arguing so much about it? I think it's crap, I'd much rather spend my money on decent management which isn't home made, I'm just trying to get Warren to make the right choice
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Limecat
Banned
Registered: 25th Jun 05
Location: The Internet
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
Most ECU manufacturers offer a guarantee, so if the ECU breaks, you get a replacement. I doubt some bloke in his shed would do the same.
I also doubt some bloke in his shed is as good as someone who works for a company who's sole line of business is engine management.
It aint a bloke in a shed though is it, you are being pedantic. Do you think a company knocking ECU's out for fun (say Vauxhall OE ones for example) is paying top money to amazing engineers? No, they are paying batch monkeys that work to numbers.
quote:
Originally posted by Robin
Anyway, why are you arguing so much about it? I think it's crap, I'd much rather spend my money on decent management which isn't home made, I'm just trying to get Warren to make the right choice
It's not home made if he is buying it pre-done, which he has said he will do.
Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one but (no pun intended) some are bigger than others.
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
User status: Offline
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It's still home made, even if it's pre built when it arrives with him.
Some bloke has got a bunch of parts in his shed and soldered it together before sending it out, that's still home made.
Megasquirt is a cheap solution, but cheap is rarely good, you get what you pay for.
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Limecat
Banned
Registered: 25th Jun 05
Location: The Internet
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Robin, are you blinkered?
So if I bought it as a home build kit, why would it be crap? Why would it be crap as a pre-assembled kit?
I think you are unable to get beyond it's USP and accept it on face value, at what it is - a good kit aimed at a certain market.
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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As you said before, it's only as crap as the person who assembles it, and with no way of knowing how good that bloke is, you can't be sure it's 'good'
I am blinkered, yes, but for good reason. Just as Dave said, a lot of mappers won't go near it, and that says a lot to me, if an engine builder, or engine mapper isn't willing to use it, it simply cannot be good, and I for one wouldn't buy something which well known mappers won't touch, they must have a reason for that.
You're right, it's aimed at a certain market, but wether or not it's a 'good kit' is debatable, if it was as good as it sounds, no-one would buy anything else, and no mapper would have an issue working with it.
For the price, it's what? £270 built? As mentioned in this thread, for a little more, you can have an ECU and loom, delivered, which are of higher quality than MegaSquirt.
I know which I'd be spending my money on.
[Edited on 07-12-2007 by Robin]
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
User status: Offline
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Anyway, I'm off to bed, it's been nice discussing it with you 
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Limecat
Banned
Registered: 25th Jun 05
Location: The Internet
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
As you said before, it's only as crap as the person who assembles it, and with no way of knowing how good that bloke is, you can't be sure it's 'good'
So thats the same as an off the shelf Emerald, MBE, Autronic etc then?
quote:
Originally posted by Robin
I am blinkered, yes, but for good reason. Just as Dave said, a lot of mappers won't go near it, and that says a lot to me.
Due to self build kits possibly?
quote:
Originally posted by Robin
You're right, it's aimed at a certain market, but wether or not it's a 'good kit' is debatable, if it was as good as it sounds, no-one would buy anything else, and no mapper would have an issue working with it.
Yeah, if everything in life was that simple we would all drive Vauxhalls and other low/mid level manufacturers wouldn't exist?
quote:
Originally posted by Robin
For the price, it's what? £270 built? As mentioned in this thread, for a little more, you can have an ECU and loom, delivered, which are of higher quality than MegaSquirt.
I know which I'd be spending my money on.
Yes buit that is £270 built, primarily pitched at people who can map/know people who can map a car. You are comparing it to somthing that is about 80% dearer (Go-tech) and someone on here said they are doing a special of fitting it and mapping for £1,000. Thats almost 4 times the cost.
The difference between £270 and £1000, bearing mind this is Corsa Sport and the Corsa is a car owned by young kids, is more than a months wage I would imagine? The difference between a wage and a disposable income is huge.
Now don't get me wrong Robin, I aint posting this to be a cunt but you are being VERY naive in your outlook. I would also rather wait and get the top dog, but not everyone in life has patience, especially on a budget build which the kit is aimed at.
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Ian
Site Administrator
Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
User status: Offline
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There is an element of hand-building in a lot of electronics though Robin, so you're not comparing the two opposite ends of the scale here.
I appreciate quality control is potentially more stringent with an OE part, but that's not to say home-brew is bad per se. There is an argument for saying that guy in the shed is actually doing a better job than a minimum wage factory worker. R&D and capital costs notwithstanding.
I think you're painting a bad picture of MS though, 'some old shit transistors from the back of some bloke's shed.'
I highly doubt he's a dumbass who finds parts and dusts them off in order to sell them.
Also I think the argument of spending more money to do it right is valid but flawed. Why are we not commissioning a bespoke map for the handling characteristics of the car like was done for VX turbo because the Astra LET map wasn't appropriate for RWD. What about ESP as the chassis wasn't designed for it. I'm being factitious, but how far do you want to go for improvements?
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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When go-tech was mentioned in this thread, the price was £435 including a loom, delivered. You'd still need mapping, but you'd need mapping for MS too, so it's less than twice as much, plus it will probably take less time to map, so that'd cost less too.
I understand that a lot of people would want the cheapest solution, that's a fairly universal way of thinking, but, I was just expressing my opinion, as Warren asked for them
I don't mean to argue about it, I just don't think it's a good option if you're building an engine of any value.
[Edited on 07-12-2007 by Robin]
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
User status: Offline
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I'm not saying it's always old crap stuff Ian, but you've no way of knowing, he COULD be dusting off old bits, then again, he could be getting them out of a brand spanking new packet. At least with an ECU from a major company, you're more likely to be getting high quality components.
You might well get the best built MegaSquirt kit ever, and it could be 100% perfect, but then again, you might not, and you've got no comeback if it's faulty.
Anyway, that's it for today, I'm not going on about it any more, I've said my bit.
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Ian
Site Administrator
Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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I'm struggling to see why if this company is big enough for me to have heard of them that they're not turning over enough stock to use new components in things they sell to the public.
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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I'm struggling to see why everyone has a problem with my opinion of it.
The kits they send out probably are using new parts, yes, but that doesn't mean the soldering/assembly is good by the bloke in the UK who is selling it.
My opinion still stands, everyone else can have their own, that's fine.
I won't be buying it, I'm just trying to point Warren in the right direction (IMO), but if that's not allowed, I'll leave this thread alone.
I do understand that it has the potential to be a perfectly good, cheap solution, which may have no problems at all, as long as everything is assembled properly, and the mapping is good, although I still feel it's more of a risk than the other cheap solutions.
[Edited on 07-12-2007 by Robin]
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Ian
Site Administrator
Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
User status: Offline
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Indeed. Can we sleep now
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