Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by tintin
I'm not stating that all of their policies are right. Hell, women are classed lower than dogs over there but either way the deterant works better than it does over here.... FACT. Saudi, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt,UAE, Jordan all practise the use of the death penelty and alas have lower crime rates regardless of some of their odd beliefs.
no they dont have lower crime rates ...they just dont report crime like we do and they dont record it like we do. Indeed many crimes over here (like domestic violence) isnt even classed or reported or logged as a crime in those countries.
You cant compare counrties in this way - unless every country has exactly the same definition of crime.
As I have already said - the USA is the closest we have to a model to compare the impact of the death penalty - same nationality of people, similar culture, belif system, morality .... the stats show murder is higher in the states with the death sentance .... its marginal - between 20-40% ...but thier is zero evidence that the death penalty is reducing crime
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tintin
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Eliminating poverty will never happen FACT. Whilst theres poverty there will be drug dealing to make money. For as long as drugs are being sold people will buy them.
You need a deterant to make these people think and curing teh uncurable is not it.
Its a viscous circle that will forever go around and around.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by tintin
Eliminating poverty will never happen FACT. Whilst theres poverty there will be drug dealing to make money. For as long as drugs are being sold people will buy them.
You need a deterant to make these people think and curing teh uncurable is not it.
Its a viscous circle that will forever go around and around.
dont use the word 'fact' - when its not a fact - its your own, very negative opinion.
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tintin
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Lets do an equel comparrison then which i'm sure you will agree on the laws, religeous views, way of life to be similar.
# 2New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
# 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
# 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
# 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
# 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
All above the US in crime stats yet no death penalty
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tintin
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Ok, so how does one suggest that poverty will ever be cured world wide?
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by tintin
Lets do an equel comparrison then which i'm sure you will agree on the laws, religeous views, way of life to be similar.
# 2New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
# 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
# 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
# 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
# 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
All above the US in crime stats yet no death penalty
please stop this -AGAIN - it doesnt matter what rates those countries they have compared to another completely different place.
It only matter whether or not those places would have lower crime rates if they introduced the death penalty .... and as I have said a hundred times - their is no evidence to support this what so ever.
For the 10th time... The only half credible evidence around is from the USA -and it shows on average that states with death penalty have 20-40% higher murder rates than those that dont
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tintin
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And the USA has a lower crime rate than that of the countries quoted above. I'm not suggesting that their crime rates would drop if corporal punishment was reintroduced but what i am saying is the death penalty being in place in the USA is obviously doing some good.
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Blade_sri
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fucking right eye for a eye!
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by tintin
Ok, so how does one suggest that poverty will ever be cured world wide?
quite simple ....
invent a cheap renewable energy source that would replace oil, fossil fuels ect
Improve crop farming through science
cure aids
legalise drugs worldwide and introduce global treatment schemes
continue to reduce the impact of religion - replacing religious belief with faith in science and humanity.
Get rid of despotic leaders like we have in iran, libya ect by not supporting them to do our dirty work.
All perfectly possible in the next 50 years imo
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by tintin
And the USA has a lower crime rate than that of the countries quoted above. I'm not suggesting that their crime rates would drop if corporal punishment was reintroduced but what i am saying is the death penalty being in place in the USA is obviously doing some good.
how many more times are you going to make this point? ...... so the usa has a lower crime rate than new zealand ..... so what? That doesnt prove anything -it isnt even relevent to your point. Yes the usa has a lower crime rate than NZ- but most of the us states dont have the death penalty - and these states on average are 20-40% less likely to produce murders. Its the states that do have the death sentance which drag the us figures down
Is it that hard for you to understand that you are proving your own point wrong with this comparison, and you are certainly not proving that the death sentance works
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by Dr Pepper]
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tintin
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As of Oct 2009 there were still 35 US states administering the death penalty, some less frequant than others. Over half of the country uses the death penalty and they have a lower crime rate in general to other countries that do not.
My point is as clear as glass, corporal punishment deters crime. The statistics that i keep showing proves that to a degree.
In 2009 there were more murders in Alaska which doesn't carry the death penalty than there wee in Alabama which does. I appreciate that this is just two states but the facts are there.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by tintin
As of Oct 2009 there were still 35 US states administering the death penalty, some less frequant than others. Over half of the country uses the death penalty and they have a lower crime rate in general to other countries that do not.
My point is as clear as glass, corporal punishment deters crime. The statistics that i keep showing proves that to a degree.
In 2009 there were more murders in Alaska which doesn't carry the death penalty than there wee in Alabama which does. I appreciate that this is just two states but the facts are there.
Your point is this ....
"35 us states use the death penalty - these states have the highest murder rates in the us. The southern states are responsible for 80% of death sentances ... yet these states have on average 20-40% higher murder rates than states which do not permit the death penalty .... yet as a whole, the usa has a lower crime rate than new zealand ...therefore this proves that the death sentance reduces crime"
do you not get how rediculous your point is?
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tintin
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Your point is this ....
"most of the us doesnt have the death sentance - but parts of it do- especially the south - which are responsible for the highest murder rates in the us .... yet as a whole, the usa has a lower crime rate than new zealand ...therefore this proves that the death sentance reduces crime"
do you not get how rediculous your point is?
Not once have i said that, please feel free to quote and correct me though as this seems to have gone on a little longer than i expected.
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tintin
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
quote:
Originally posted by tintin
As of Oct 2009 there were still 35 US states administering the death penalty, some less frequant than others. Over half of the country uses the death penalty and they have a lower crime rate in general to other countries that do not.
My point is as clear as glass, corporal punishment deters crime. The statistics that i keep showing proves that to a degree.
In 2009 there were more murders in Alaska which doesn't carry the death penalty than there wee in Alabama which does. I appreciate that this is just two states but the facts are there.
Your point is this ....
"35 us states use the death penalty - these states have the highest murder rates in the us. The southern states are responsible for 80% of death sentances ... yet these states have on average 20-40% higher murder rates than states which do not permit the death penalty .... yet as a whole, the usa has a lower crime rate than new zealand ...therefore this proves that the death sentance reduces crime"
do you not get how rediculous your point is?
What did i put above? I stated that Alaska which is North has a higher violent crime rate than that of Alabama which is south. Alaska however does not have the death penalty.
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Dr Pepper
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that is your exact point that you have made many times
.... the us has a lower crime rate than new zealand ...therefore this proves that capital punishment works to some degree
That is a crazy point to make - especially as the only reason the us has a low murder rate is becuase of the states who dont have capital punishment having up to 40% lower murder rates.
Can you not just admit that comparing the usa to nz to support the idea that capital punishment works is complete nonsense?
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by Dr Pepper]
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tintin
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No, because its a valid comparrison going by your parameters previously set.
Yes you are right with regards to the state for state stats to a degree. Some states that do not have the death penalty have a lower murder rate but not violent crime rate.
However the two countries still run in the same way, have a mixed religeous occupancy, similar westernised laws and yet NZ has a over all higher crime rate than the US even though the US has the deterant of death.
My point all along is the death penalty does work as a deterant to serious violant crime. Not perfect but it does work to a degree.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by tintin
No, because its a valid comparrison going by your parameters previously set.
Yes you are right with regards to the state for state stats to a degree. Some states that do not have the death penalty have a lower murder rate but not violent crime rate.
However the two countries still run in the same way, have a mixed religeous occupancy, similar westernised laws and yet NZ has a over all higher crime rate than the US even though the US has the deterant of death.
My point all along is the death penalty does work as a deterant to serious violant crime. Not perfect but it does work to a degree.
"My point all along is the death penalty does work as a deterant to serious violant crime. Not perfect but it does work to a degree. "
..... please define "to a degree" and prove it
and dont just say that the us has lower crime rates than new zealand.
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by Dr Pepper]
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tintin
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Round and around in circles.
More countries that administer the death penalty have a lower crime rate than countries that do not. There are of course a few exceptions.
As for proof, i posted the stats earlier which i shant bother reposting as you get all upset by them.
I'm well up for corporal punishment and honestly feel that the death penalty should be reintroduced to the UK for all serious violent crimes with other more severe punishments laid out for sex offences.
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sc0ott
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Death would be good if you want the government to save money but the person being killed wouldnt suffer for what they done.
Acid in eyes type punishment would be good if you wanted the person to suffer for the rest of their life but at what cost?
Criminals that are freed from jail do crimes over again because they prefer jail life. Now thats far from being 'punished' imo.
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by sc0ott]
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by sc0ott
Death would be good if you want the government to save money but the person being killed wouldnt suffer for what they done.
Acid in eyes type punishment would be good if you wanted the person to suffer for the rest of their life but at what cost?
Criminals that are freed from jail do crimes over again because they prefer jail life. Now thats far from being 'punished' imo.
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by sc0ott]
The idea that its cheaper to execute someone than to put them in prison for life is not true..... it costs far more to put someone on death row.
I completely agree that we need to radically change our prison and justice system ...but capital punishment is the idiots solution imo .... its revenge, it isnt punishment, and it isnt a detterent - it doesnt stop people offending, and in the long run it will help no one, and could make things much, much worse
I can see why people want revenge, but it wont make you any safer, and it wont reduce petty or violent crime
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by Dr Pepper]
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sc0ott
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I would feel safe if a known knife man had his fingers chopped off.
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Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
quote:
Originally posted by sc0ott
Death would be good if you want the government to save money but the person being killed wouldnt suffer for what they done.
Acid in eyes type punishment would be good if you wanted the person to suffer for the rest of their life but at what cost?
Criminals that are freed from jail do crimes over again because they prefer jail life. Now thats far from being 'punished' imo.
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by sc0ott]
The idea that its cheaper to execute someone than to put them in prison for life is not true..... it costs far more to put someone on death row.
I completely agree that we need to radically change our prison and justice system ...but capital punishment is the idiots solution imo .... its revenge, it isnt punishment, and it isnt a detterent - it doesnt stop people offending, and in the long run it will help no one, and could make things much, much worse
I can see why people want revenge, but it wont make you any safer, and it wont reduce petty or violent crime
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by Dr Pepper]
i cant see how you can make sweeping statements of fact like that when only earlier in the thread you were hypocritcally guilty of accusing someone of doing exactly what you are doing
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
quote:
Originally posted by sc0ott
Death would be good if you want the government to save money but the person being killed wouldnt suffer for what they done.
Acid in eyes type punishment would be good if you wanted the person to suffer for the rest of their life but at what cost?
Criminals that are freed from jail do crimes over again because they prefer jail life. Now thats far from being 'punished' imo.
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by sc0ott]
The idea that its cheaper to execute someone than to put them in prison for life is not true..... it costs far more to put someone on death row.
I completely agree that we need to radically change our prison and justice system ...but capital punishment is the idiots solution imo .... its revenge, it isnt punishment, and it isnt a detterent - it doesnt stop people offending, and in the long run it will help no one, and could make things much, much worse
I can see why people want revenge, but it wont make you any safer, and it wont reduce petty or violent crime
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by Dr Pepper]
i cant see how you can make sweeping statements of fact like that when only earlier in the thread you were hypocritcally guilty of accusing someone of doing exactly what you are doing
becuase I didnt use the word 'fact' ..and i did use the word 'imo'
and because there is no proof what so ever that capital punishment reduces crime ... and it is indeed cheaper to imprison someone for life than it is to put them on death row. I said it 'could' make things worse ..because their is only circumstantial evidence to support this point.
my problem earlier was that he said it was a 'fact' that poverty couldnt be eliminated ... and he said it was fact that the death sentence reduces srime ...neither of those things are facts...and their is little or no evidence to support either one
that answer your question?
[Edited on 15-05-2011 by Dr Pepper]
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Ben G
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
quote:
Originally posted by Ben G
i like the idea of this.
seems perfectly fine to me.
i'm getting to like iran now. apart from being smelly, they seem to have their heads switched on.
yes - a country where people who were caught using twitter during their last 'elections' had to switch their families around with other protesters ...because when government special forces arrived they were known to force you to rape your own family members.
they definately have their 'heads switched on' as a nation
i hate twitter anyway, don't like any of those sites.
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sc0ott
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Cheaper in the long run though? How many times does the average criminal go through courts using legal aid? Benefits and all that. How much does it cost to keep them in jail? In terms of food, security guard costs etc.
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