JonnyJ
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Registered: 23rd Sep 05
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EJ saying Hulkenberg has signed a deal with FI. He gets ridiculed by some but he has awesome contacts in F1 and isnt usually wrong when it comes to these sorts of rumours.
Though Brundle hinted at Lotus.
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Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
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I wonder if the moaning Scotch has grabbed a seat at Lotus?
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JonnyJ
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Registered: 23rd Sep 05
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron
I wonder if the moaning Scotch has grabbed a seat at Lotus?
Doubt it, they'd be mental to go for him over Massa. Can see Di Resta racing outside of F1 next season unless he starts putting some results in soon.
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Kyle T
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Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
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Hulk to FI will annoy me if it happens. Another sidestep, he can't keep wasting seasons.
Lotus need to take him.
Lotus Elise 111R
Impreza WRX STi
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Kyle T
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob_Quads
I don't think it was that. He was in the gap and then webber did a dummy move across him.
I don't dispute that, but if it were early in the season or if Hamilton was a title contender - he wouldn't have been between those redbulls IMO. Hammy made a good move, and was just hoping that he'd have room on Sebs' side of the track, Webbo might have been the root cause - but I think it was a fair gamble (even in hindsight) from Lewis to expect to have space to maneuver to his right.
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JonnyJ
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/110633
Think what Wolff says here is interesting. There has definitely been a step in performance from Louts and Red Bull in recent races.
You expected RB to improve but with Lotus, i thought they might fade with the new tyres, like FI and Ferrari but if anything, they have improved and i wonder if they are benefitting from increased traction from clever engine mapping which are minimised and loss from the change in tyres. I think its hard to argue against that, in the race at least, they are the 2nd best team at the moment behind RB.
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Kyle T
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Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
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Also, people are saying that their "traction control" is KERS related. On SV's first Q3 lap when KERS wasn't working, his back end was loose as hell on exit of some of the turns.
DUN DUN DUUUUNNNNNN
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Steve
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So would that be legal TC?
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Kyle T
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Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
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I'm not sure what the rules say, whether it's a case of "no traction control is allowed" or "no ECU controlled traction control is allowed" or something in between.
It won't/can't be ECU related as they're all standard produced from McLaren.
If they've got a clever way of integrating their suspension into KERS, I guess they could technically gain the same effect as traction control.
KERS is tied to the flywheel, so in theory it can dull power to the wheels just the same as it can boost it, and if they've got a clever way of the suspension "telling" KERS that traction is being broken... who knows.
A lot of Redbull's innovations were legal, but against the "spirit of the rules" if that makes sense - so have been banned after discovery. I'm sure this one would go the same way if it does exist and could be proven, but from what I know - no team has filed an official complaint, meaning there's a good chance that it's all just a fairy tale.
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fred7
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Registered: 17th May 04
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Isnt kers operated by a button tho and a limited amount per lap so they cant use the kers on all corners or wouldnt have enough? Or is it the traction that harvests the kers power thats been limited
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Kyle T
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Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
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The KERS battery harvests from the brakes, which is why they adjust bias if/when it fails to compensate.
I'm not sure what the battery capacity is vs the 8second per lap allowance, which I think is ECU controlled.
The KERS batteries then run an electric motor which "boosts" the flywheel when the button is pushed, but I guess there's nothing to stop this motor from causing drag on demand (via suspension data).
If the rules state that KERS can only be used to boost power for 8secs per lap, I guess in theory the motor could legally be used to retard the flywheel whenever they want - if the battery has the extra capacity.
Lots of guess work, over simplifying stuff I don't understand etc - but by reading between the lines of the rules, I guess KERS technically could form an effect which will improve traction control.
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JonnyJ
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Registered: 23rd Sep 05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyle T
Also, people are saying that their "traction control" is KERS related. On SV's first Q3 lap when KERS wasn't working, his back end was loose as hell on exit of some of the turns.
DUN DUN DUUUUNNNNNN
It's was kicking out at the end of spoon bit wasn't that because of wind direction? Drivers were saying they had a head winds going in which gave them loads of grip but a tall wind on the way out which induced oversteer.
Still don't buy this TC rumour at all. He was still faster than Lewis by a quarter of a second, if this traction control is the thing keeping them in front and he had no kers AND no "TC" he'd have been miles off.
Good aero, good car understanding, clever engine mapping and good driver for me.
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Kyle T
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Registered: 11th Sep 04
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
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quote:
Originally posted by JonnyJ
It's was kicking out at the end of spoon bit wasn't that because of wind direction?
GTFO, a Redbull would have downforce on the MOON, a bit of wind direction means jack.
Seriously though, I'm with you - I think the TC rumours are just the standard cycle of "we're all in denial that RB are so fast legitimately" part of the season.
Similar to the Flexi wings, although they were visibly obvious - however RBR passed the tests every week. It's a good example though of "breaking the rules without breaking the rules" which F1 designers are incredibly good at.
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Kyle T
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I HATE Gary Anderson but this video is pretty cool:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24511950
The reason I hate him is summed up at the end of the video. "2/10 of a mm is worth 2/10 of a second".
Pulling numbers like that out his arse all the way through winter testing is REALLY tedious. STFU you silly old bastard.
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Impreza WRX STi
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JonnyJ
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Location: Scotchland
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Gary Anderson makes my blood Fucking boil, it's hilarious how much he contradicts himself through the season, hasn't got a Fucking clue
But aye the video was interesting, noticed the plank getting hot on Webbers car in Korea, didn't know it was unique to RB though. Their car just looks different to all the others in quite a few ways.
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JonnyJ
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Registered: 23rd Sep 05
Location: Scotchland
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyle T
quote:
Originally posted by JonnyJ
It's was kicking out at the end of spoon bit wasn't that because of wind direction?
GTFO, a Redbull would have downforce on the MOON, a bit of wind direction means jack.
Seriously though, I'm with you - I think the TC rumours are just the standard cycle of "we're all in denial that RB are so fast legitimately" part of the season.
Similar to the Flexi wings, although they were visibly obvious - however RBR passed the tests every week. It's a good example though of "breaking the rules without breaking the rules" which F1 designers are incredibly good at.
Aye, wouldn't surprise me to find out they are doing something which is a bit on the edge rule wise. They have form for it, as do plenty of teams. Out and out cheating however...not for me, their brand is too important to get caught up in a cheating saga.
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Kyle T
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Location: Selby, North Yorkshire
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quote:
Originally posted by JonnyJ
Out and out cheating however...not for me, their brand is too important to get caught up in a cheating saga.
Depends on your definition of cheating I guess.
If they were sneaking a hacked ECU onto the car minutes before qualifying... yeah - that's cheating, but like you say they would never risk that.
Worming your way around the rules to gain the benefits of a traction-control type of effect is not cheating, and does not risk punishment - only future banning of the device because it's against the SPIRIT of the rules.
Just like the Flexi wings last year, the RBR front wing was legal all season long but every TV viewer on the planet could see the wing bending around like it was made of jelly. They made a wing which passed the tests though, so although they couldn't be punished - the tests/rules were rewritten to prevent them from doing it this year.
It's clever stuff, and all teams do it. Look at Mercs' interpretation of "active" suspension. It's not active, otherwise they'd be banned - but it's suspension which responds to pitch and roll - and stiffens/softens accordingly. It has the same effect as active suspension, but it's not active - it uses physics to change the behaviour of the chassis.
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
So would that be legal TC?
Know someone that works quite closely with the cars for one of the major teams and six months or so back we got discussing* the theory of varying the charging of the KERS using the brake sensor (/one of the wheel sensors) to detect wheelspin and in effect create a form of TC - in theory it'd work and potentially, granted it's still all shades of grey , you could get around parts of rule 9.3 as you're affecting engine load over directly affecting the driven wheels but direct wheelspin detection was where we decided you could come a cropper.
Similar to what Kyle mentioned, RaceCar had an article on a possible theory of using the suspension loadings as an input for varying the KERS torque.
I'm not overly convinced it is a form of TC, even if there are plenty of videos apparently highlighting the audible similarities between yester-year TC cars and Vettel in Singapore. Rather i'd edge my bets on RBR bending the rules around 'engine blowing'.
Still, they're certainly doing something if you go by Vettel's comments  -
quote:
"We are pretty proud of the system we have because other people will never figure out how we've done it," he said. "Constantly we try to improve the car. That's part of the homework that we have to do."
* Being honest, the discussion was purely theoretical and they weren't giving away any hard yes/no answers to questions i had (wasn't expecting them to tbf). Although it seem as if they had heard the theory/idea before......
Edit - for ref/info - Rule 9.3 -
quote:
Traction control:
No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle torque demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted...
Edit 2 - Regarding ECU's, i've read on a few forums the possibility of using 'dynamic code' during runtime and obfuscating it during review - essentially you hide functions/features unless certain specifics/inputs are met. This could give you a Benetton-esque type setup. Although if this was possible then i would suspect McLaren/FIA would already know about it.
[Edited on 15-10-2013 by Dom]
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JonnyJ
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Which major team was it Dom? Merc, Ferrari, RB or Lotus?
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by JonnyJ
Which major team was it Dom? Merc, Ferrari, RB or Lotus?
The person i was talking to?
They'd know if some form of KERS-come-traction control-esque system is possible and would have insight into if RBR, or other teams, were running such a system.
But they're still working for the team so i'm going to keep it at - "mates, dad's, boss's, cat's, dog's, goldfish said..." 
As said though, they were happy to play along with the idea in a theoretical sense but they weren't giving out solid answers to the questions i had.
[Edited on 15-10-2013 by Dom]
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Ben G
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Registered: 12th Jan 07
Location: Essex
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Sounds like you have an invisible friend imo.
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben G
Sounds like you have an invisible friend imo.
You can believe or think what ever you want Ben
[Edited on 17-10-2013 by Dom]
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Ben G
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Registered: 12th Jan 07
Location: Essex
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I feel better knowing that I have your blessing. Cheers.
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Ben G
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Registered: 12th Jan 07
Location: Essex
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Saw in the paper today that lewis met up with nicole.
This can go 2 ways. He'll be all happy once he wins her back and drive like a nutcase to impress her.
Or
She'll not be interested and he will make mistakes and not concentrate on the race.
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JonnyJ
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Registered: 23rd Sep 05
Location: Scotchland
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Since they split he's taken 4 poles and one race win, I think he's past the stage of letting it affect him on track.
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