Danny W
Organiser: East Midlands
Premium Member
Registered: 14th Nov 05
Location: Northamptonshire
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Proper Cool  looking forward to reading the updates as they come
Smoke Grey 5 Door
EastMids Regional Events
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Jed D
Member
Registered: 15th Mar 11
Location: Durham
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
Dome of the cars in the states are running 1100bhp.. They are fucking mad!
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some of the turbos are doing considerably more than 1100bhp
theres one into the 6 second bracket on the 1/4mile, some of the FWD ones in the 7's 
these engine are the future, they already widely used and tuned in yank land, we're miles behind
my mates on doing a charger 2.2 coupe on standard internals for now... see how it goes 
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
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Problem with superchargers is the heat generated .. More so for me due to the engine being in the back.
I will get between 350/360 but depending how hot the day is i could loose up to 30bhp.. Which iis why i need to look at water meth to keep stuff cool.
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Jed D
Member
Registered: 15th Mar 11
Location: Durham
User status: Offline
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yeah i can imagine, suppose theres an advantage to fwd there then, what coolant you running through yours? heard that 'water wetter' stuff does a better job
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
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its not the coolant of the engine.. its the coolant in the charge cooler as that is what takes the heat from the intake...
but its just some online ebay stuff which is supposed to be ok. but the water never gets too hot, at most luke warm.
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Jed D
Member
Registered: 15th Mar 11
Location: Durham
User status: Offline
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yeah thats what i meant, sorry, use water wetter stuff in the charge cooler
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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had some 'free time' sunday so made a start,
removed engine and gear box ready for new chains, remove balancer shafts, new oil pump, fabricate air con pump mount.
new atb dif to go in along with new gear box housing with top mount.
striped sub frame down ready for new H&R anti roll bar, also found drop link boots split AGAIN buy cheep buy twice!
engine has a new home for a few weeks.
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
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Have we talked about what management you are going to run? Ive just bitten the bullet and decided to go dutch.
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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a few post back on page 7, stock ECU with Courtenay map. if I do ever decide to go for big power it will be full stand alone. but that's way off yet! 
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
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go get the dutch software..
standard Z22se ecu but fully unlocked.. its dead easy to map..you just follow the instructions.. put in what mods you have got, injectors, throttle body etc etc and then just start driving and it starts learning your maps and you can alter anything you need.
at £700 it pretty good considering courtenays dont know how to fully map it yet.
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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£700!
that's steep for software, read about dutch and reviews seem 50/50 for and against.
Courtenay sport do a great job with mapping z22se's and keeping them good every day road cars which is what im after and at a low cost.
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
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Well.. I look at it like this..
A remap from courts is £100 per hour on the dyno.. So if your there and you have an easy setup it will be approx £125-£150 just for the remap. Then if you have to spend time and fuel getting there thats extra cost.. And then if you uprade something its back for another remap..
For instance.. It was going to cost me £500 to get tgere and back, over night stay in a lodge at £43 and 10 hours of driving.. So for an extra £200 i can map it myself and all future upgrades i can map myself also..
Plus.. Ive not heard one bad thing about the software etc as yet so be interested to know what you have heard against it..
On top of that you do realise that its not courtenay who map the car.. They put it on the rollers, take some info about how its running then send your map to zee german who maps it based on what mark has written down.. It comes back some 30 mins later and its just rince n repeat.. And another thing.. Klasen has not fully cracked the ecu unlike peter (dutch software) so your never going to get a perfect map..
Ive been there, done it. Over and over and im just trying to save you some money in the long term..
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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lotus used to do the map righting for Courtenay's, and they wrote map for Vauxhall for all cars fitted with z22se engines. not heard anything bad about their work and had a Courtenay map on this engine for over 90k now with no issuse's. for a road car its spot on.
like I said if I do ever decide to go for big power on this engine I will be using full stand alone ecu which can do far more than the basic GMPT ecu it left the factory with.
vx220 owners seem to go for the dutch software where as astra/Vectra owners go for Courtenay maps.
think it has something to do with air con and the other extras they have that the vx220 doesn't?
thank you for your input though, saving money is a good thing!
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
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the higher power you go the more issues you will have with a courtenays map.. the more power you want the more they have to change within the map, sweet spot is about 250 - 275 bhp.. but it gets to the point where klasen cant do much because he doesnt have access to the things he needs in the ECU so he tries to get round the issue by manipulating something else.. which you wouldnt really do and is why people tend to go standalone.
ive had long long talks with jon at courtenays, in depth about our ecu and what they can and cant achieve, ive helped him directly with some stuff, 1/2 of the vx lot have helped out with issues and development of the supercharger project right from the start. it was only the other month i was talking to him about using a bigger map sensor to solve the cutting issues we was having at high rpm.. guess what.. he now offers that in the stage 3/4 upgrade... so as a whole the vx lot have had a lot more input to the thing as a whole than you might think. take the 6 rib conversion for example, there was an issue i raised in regards to the alternator being spun too fast in the 300bhp range so one of the vx lads got some underdrive pulleys made up in 6 rib and now i think there is just mine and 1 other running the 6 rib conversion with underdrive pulleys. (i can sort you out if you need)
compared to the VX lot, vectra and astra people dont really track the car so they wont ever see the issues many of the VX lot see.. up to 250-275 bhp courtenay are about 95% on their way to perfection but start getting any higher and they just cant do it properly. plus, the z22 and the m62 are a match made in heaven so there isnt much to do in reality..
the dutch software is fully standalone.. you can alter every part of the ecu just like any standalone system but you get to keep your fly by wire, no need for external trigger wheels etc.. its just easier as a whole... your forgetting.. ive been there and done it.. from NA tuning through stage 1, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5 and now 4.. with courtenay maps, tms maps, rs tuning maps.. etc im trying to save you the time, effort and expense by giving you the best options now.. at the start.
let me give you some examples of dutch software vs CS..
courtenays stage 2 is deemed about 250bhp.. a lad on the dutch software is at 295.. same engine, mods etc.. just different software.
a stage 4 at courtenays cant map the larger injectors properly in open loop so they opt for smaller injectors and higher fuel pressure.. this isnt the correct way in reality as the injectors duty cycle is maxed..and the massive inlet temps saw a drop of about 30bhp. on dutch software its been seen to run perfectly on the larger injectors, open and closed loop, no inlet temp probs and runs 395 with no drops in power..
basically.. if your thinking about going higher than 250bhp.. just save yourself all the hassle of standalone (£1000+) get the dutch software now, have a better map and then upgrade your map each time you get another part to put on.
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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I see what you are saying but as I cant fit a larger charger without changing the way the car looks from the outside the Courtenay map will be fine for now. and at under £400 will be a lot cheeper for me. im only looking to get over 200bhp so should see this with no effort at all.
I still have another engine that im planning some thing different with in another car in the future.
im not new to tunning engines been at it for many years. I was told that the x20xev couldn't make much over 170bhp with standard bottom end, 186bhp, I was told that z20leh injectors would not work in the x20xev, 192bhp, I was told you couldn't keep smooth idle at over 200bhp on the xev, 226bhp still smooth as standard.
people said you couldn't fit the z22se in a corsa c, that many had tried and failed. the one who got the engine in spent 2 years trying to get it running and couldn't.
don't want to sound like I don't appreciate what you are saying but I have looked in to all options and made the mistake of not measuring up an astra before buying throttles but now back on the path to get +200bhp and keep it drivable as an everyday car.
if I wanted easy cheep big power in a corsa c I would have fitted a z20leh. but as you know the z22se family is a better engine and the future!
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
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Well with the m62 you can run 300bhp as i did easily but just be warned the mapping is t perfect.
Infact luke got 314bhp which is the highest stage 3 s/c courtenays had ever seen mark and jon couldnt actually believe it lol.
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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carl evans has recently got 276bhp on a stage 2, shocked them all at Courtenay as its totally standard inside bar balancer delete. he's not keeping it standard though.
if I get 220bhp I will be
if I get any more then I will be 
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chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
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You will get 250 no probs.
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
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had a busy day working on the Corsa today, finished moving ABS unit, swapped gearboxes, which ment prepping Astra's box for the corsa, started doing timing chains and balancer delete, also measured up for air con pump mount bracket.
will post more photo's soon.
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corsarooney
Premium Member
Registered: 21st Nov 09
Location: Maidenhead, Berkshire
User status: Offline
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This will be MEGA
I'll defo be keeping an eye on this!!
Corsa 1.6 sport - 1
1.7 puma engined fiesta - 0
Keeping corsa's on the redline since 2008
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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here's how to prep the F23 to fit the corsa C.
decided to use the higher final drive ratio box from an astra G too see what its like after the 4.17 ratio from the Vectra which its had since I did the conversion. also the astra box has the top mount point not the front end mount point. if I don't like it I can always fit the Vectra box with the astra end cover when I fit the quaiffe diff.
fisrt job is to remove the lug from under the rear of the diff housing
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then the hole into the diff housing near the right hand drive shaft needs drilling and tapping M12 x1.75 for the rear corsa 1.7dti F23 mount.
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next is to bevel the edge of the top mount lugs so as to allow more clearance and movement when fitting.
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I also fitted the Mtech short shifter kit from the old box which also gives more clearance when its all in the car. quite a lot shorter than standard item!
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here's the Vectra and astra boxes together.
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swapped the clutch slave cylinders over as well as the bearing feels better on the old box plus I know when it was last changed.
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corsadonk
Premium Member
Registered: 4th Jul 09
Location: Marlborough, Wiltshire
User status: Offline
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I didn't know M-tech do a short shifter for the F23.
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by corsadonk
I didn't know M-tech do a short shifter for the F23.
I have had it quite a few years now. got it from LMF when I had the Vectra. wasn't cheep and a bugger to fit with the box in the car.
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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well, went to fit the new FIA timing and balancer chain kits today but that didn't happen!
knocked the balancer shaft bearings back buy 7.5mm to cover the oil ways, went to fit the now idler sprockets and no bolts in the kit
checked the rest of the kit and 2 guide rail bolts missing!!
then I checked the chain, more play than the old one!!
not to be put off I decided to remove the chain from the B207R engine.
all on then when torqueing the bolts 3 stretched!!
removed that kit and going to order a genuine GM tomorrow. nearly 3x the price but quality over cost.
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davegreen
Premium Member
Registered: 20th May 12
Location: Oxfordshire
User status: Offline
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had some parts turn up yesterday
genuine gm chain set, no pattern part crap this time!
new oil filter and the custom made pre rad from pro alloy turned up as well
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so im going to be busy fitting the chains and re fitting the engine over the next few days, hope to get it done before the weekend so I can take it to combe! 
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