Daimo B
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Registered: 20th Mar 00
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
And what experience do you have? I built race engines for a living, i see the wear on parts when they were rebuilt and you could always tell the engines that were run in hard from the ones that were run in soft right away. The ones that were run in hard had less wear on the bores, less ring blow by and used less oil between races. Your not a motorsport or engine technician so do you really know what your on about?
Brought up around bikes, dads ex BSB level rider, moved onto Jetkis (Bomadier Rotax engines), now back to bikes again. When you've aided your dad stripping down his race bike in the living room over xmas, you learn a fair bit.
So hold on, was you a bike shop, or a race engine builder???
As for this
" The ones that were run in hard had less wear on the bores, less ring blow by and used less oil between races. Your not a motorsport or engine technician so do you really know what your on about?"
Err try the other way around. Less wear on the bores = run in gently. more wear on bores = thrashed from the off. What about the silicone lining of the bores to aid the running in period.
I personnally don't know as much as you obviously, but then im not talking about xyz and stating opinions as facts.
[Edited on 03-03-2009 by VXR]
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Graham88
Member
Registered: 16th Apr 07
Location: South East Kent Drives: E46 M3
User status: Offline
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Sexy as hell, that plate needs to be a bit smaller though, it's hench 
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Mobby
Member
Registered: 31st Dec 07
Location: Leicestershire
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i was always taught that run it in gentle and it will last longer.
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Daimo B
Member
Registered: 20th Mar 00
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quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
An additional factor that you may not have realized, is that the person at the dealership who set up your bike probably blasted your brand new bike pretty hard on the "test run". So, without realizing it, that adrenaline crazed set - up mechanic actually did you a huge favor !!
Errr what you doing taking a brand new bike out for a test ride????? You don't.
It gets removed from the crate, build, turned on, checked, but not ridden down the road. All checks can be done from the dealer.
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Daimo B
Member
Registered: 20th Mar 00
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveyLC
I borrowed a 999R for a day from OnYerBike for a photoshoot.. Absoloute DOG of a bike for the road.. Would be AWESOME on a track (if you were used to twins).. I find with the twins you end up fumbling around trying to find the right gear for entering corners, yeah its all practice but inline fours are just so easy and forgiving by comparison.. I'm not saying twins are shit fullstop but what I am saying is its like an art you have to master but who wants all that bullshit?
Nope, totally disagree, but thats down to individual riding style.
tbh, i've never ever fumbled around for gears on a twin, triple, or il4.
If we all liek teh same sh1t, we'd be stuck on that Jap IL4 crap.....
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DizzyRebel
Member
Registered: 2nd Jan 09
Location: Lincoln
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by VXR
quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
And what experience do you have? I built race engines for a living, i see the wear on parts when they were rebuilt and you could always tell the engines that were run in hard from the ones that were run in soft right away. The ones that were run in hard had less wear on the bores, less ring blow by and used less oil between races. Your not a motorsport or engine technician so do you really know what your on about?
Brought up around bikes, dads ex BSB level rider, moved onto Jetkis (Bomadier Rotax engines), now back to bikes again. When you've aided your dad stripping down his race bike in the living room over xmas, you learn a fair bit.
So hold on, was you a bike shop, or a race engine builder???
As for this
" The ones that were run in hard had less wear on the bores, less ring blow by and used less oil between races. Your not a motorsport or engine technician so do you really know what your on about?"
Err try the other way around. Less wear on the bores = run in gently. more wear on bores = thrashed from the off. What about the silicone lining of the bores to aid the running in period.
EX BSB rider or EX bsb level rider? if he was bsb level but wasnt in bsb then he wasnt bsb level was he? And generally, racers know limited things about engine building. Rebuilding one engine on the garage floor is not the same as building race and road engines day in day out for 5 years is it?
I worked at a road dealership for 3 years before we took on the race SXV project and then set up our own british championship team befoee helping alice racing with other development projects.
Your actually not listening to me are you?
How Do Rings Seal Against Tremendous Combustion Pressure ??
From the actual gas pressure itself !! It passes over the top of the ring, and gets behind it to force it outward against the cylinder wall. The problem is that new rings are far from perfect and they must be worn in quite a bit in order to completely seal all the way around the bore. If the gas pressure is strong enough during the engine's first miles of operation (open that throttle !!!), then the entire ring will wear into
the cylinder surface, to seal the combustion pressure as well as possible.
The Problem With "Easy Break In" ...
The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.
There's a very small window of opportunity to get the rings to seal really well ... the first 20 miles !!
Q: Will this break - in method cause my engine to wear out faster ???
A: No, in fact, a poor ring seal will allow an increase in the by products of combustion to contaminate the oil.
Acid contamination and oil consumption are the 2 reliability problems which are the result of an
"owner's manual" or "magazine tech article" style easy break-in.
By following the instructions from this manual, you'll find that your oil is cleaner and the engine will rev quicker.
Plus, you'll have much better torque and power across the power range from the vastly improved ring seal. Reliability and Power are 100% connected.
As for a silicone coating, where did you get that from? No engines have a silicone coating on the bores. Some are nickasil plated but thats a completely different thing all together. You really dont know what your on about do you?
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DizzyRebel
Member
Registered: 2nd Jan 09
Location: Lincoln
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by VXR
quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
An additional factor that you may not have realized, is that the person at the dealership who set up your bike probably blasted your brand new bike pretty hard on the "test run". So, without realizing it, that adrenaline crazed set - up mechanic actually did you a huge favor !!
Errr what you doing taking a brand new bike out for a test ride????? You don't.
It gets removed from the crate, build, turned on, checked, but not ridden down the road. All checks can be done from the dealer.
You muppet! Riding a bike is part of the PDI procedure, my god - stop now please your making a fool out of yourself!
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Daimo B
Member
Registered: 20th Mar 00
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
Various opinions on engine bore ware....
As for a silicone coating, where did you get that from? No engines have a silicone coating on the bores. Some are nickasil plated but thats a completely different thing all together. You really dont know what your on about do you?
In recent years, Nikasil coatings have provided a challenge for engine builders. Nikasil is a hard coating of nickel andSILICONE carbide about .0025? to .003?"
Yes, your right about everything. No-one else knows anything else about engines. My old man, nope, hes s dumbo, he doesn't know anything about engines. He wasn't studying them before you was an itch.
What you've said does make sense, but its not proven. Its theories by a few individuals. Some believe it, some don't. I'll believe 30+ years experence over some web fella who's signed up to corsasport this year, thinking he's gods gift at engines.
And whilst he had a BSB license, he' taken apart more engines and rebuilt them than you've had hot dinners. Currently pulls apart Benelli and MV engines.
[Edited on 03-03-2009 by VXR]
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Graham88
Member
Registered: 16th Apr 07
Location: South East Kent Drives: E46 M3
User status: Offline
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Less talking about ballshit, more about the Kwak
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Daimo B
Member
Registered: 20th Mar 00
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
You muppet! Riding a bike is part of the PDI procedure, my god - stop now please your making a fool out of yourself!
PDI procedure........ Good lordy
And my name is not Kermit.
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DizzyRebel
Member
Registered: 2nd Jan 09
Location: Lincoln
User status: Offline
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Nickasil isnt to aid running in procedures at all, its the coating put on the bores of alloy cylinder engines as its harder wearing than alloy. And lots of racers remove nickasil plating and fit steel sleeves as its cheaper in the long run as you cant re-bore nickasil it has to be plated again and its very expensive.
You old man studied old engines with old theories, nowadays things are much more high tech and the theory and practises are completely different. he can probably wave a spanner like nobodys business but as far as building a race winner goes hes not got the first clue.
What ive said is proven, both on the dyno, the reliability, the results they get and the condition of internals at rebuild. The engines are more powerful, less prone to failure, win more races and when they are taken apart you can see the rings have sealed properly.
And just to further more my point. Glen from GWR (reputedly one of the best engine builders in the world as hes sent engines from across the globe) who did all our blueprinting, balancing and headwork, who used to work for HRC as cheif engine technician reccomends a hard running in procedure.
Ill belive HRC experience and a world class reputation over somones dad who rebuilds engines on the living room floor.
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Ojc
Member
Registered: 14th Nov 00
Location: Reading: Drives : Clio 197
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
Really? even though aprilia have better build quality than any of the jap makers?
FINALLY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS SOMEONE WHO ISN'T BLIND IGNORANT.
I love you
Best Regards.
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Tiesto
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: Hinckley, Leicestershire
User status: Offline
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Nice bike  Good Choice. Just sold my 05 ZX6, really superb bikes.
Gotta love CS for random arguing.
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Daimo B
Member
Registered: 20th Mar 00
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
Nickasil isnt to aid running in procedures at all, its the coating put on the bores of alloy cylinder engines as its harder wearing than alloy. And lots of racers remove nickasil plating and fit steel sleeves as its cheaper in the long run as you cant re-bore nickasil it has to be plated again and its very expensive.
You old man studied old engines with old theories, nowadays things are much more high tech and the theory and practises are completely different. he can probably wave a spanner like nobodys business but as far as building a race winner goes hes not got the first clue.
What ive said is proven, both on the dyno, the reliability, the results they get and the condition of internals at rebuild. The engines are more powerful, less prone to failure, win more races and when they are taken apart you can see the rings have sealed properly.
And just to further more my point. Glen from GWR (reputedly one of the best engine builders in the world as hes sent engines from across the globe) who did all our blueprinting, balancing and headwork, who used to work for HRC as cheif engine technician reccomends a hard running in procedure.
Ill belive HRC experience and a world class reputation over somones dad who rebuilds engines on the living room floor.
Look at the power charts after 30,000 miles and tell me the thrashed at new engine produces great power still.... Now look the power chart of those run in easier.
Your theories are only good for RACE engines, not road engines. Two totally different ball games.
I'll put that MotoGp lump in mine and see if it starts every single morning, runs past 20,000 miles, without fail..............
Coating put inside the bores to aid the rings wearing in. And your right, it is expensive, but its diamond cut at MANUFACTURE not when re-building as you keep quoting.
And again, i'd seriously keep stumph about what you think my old man knows and does not know You presume to know so so much
PS, if your such an ace engine builder, why on earth are you sat on a boyracers car site when you should surley be working on preparing the engines for this years upcoming season????
Every engine builder I know hardly uses the tinternet forums as they generally are well paid, and have a much better quality of life, and at this moment, would be busy busy busy......
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Daimo B
Member
Registered: 20th Mar 00
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
Really? even though aprilia have better build quality than any of the jap makers?
FINALLY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS SOMEONE WHO ISN'T BLIND IGNORANT.
Build quality is not reliability of a screaming 2 stoke engine.
Aprillia BUILD quality has always been good. Its the electrics that arn't, although thats fast becoming a thing of the past. Just like Fiat.
I actually agree with Dizzy, althoguh Honda lead the way with quality components with regards to jap engineering.
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Tom
Member
Registered: 3rd Apr 02
Location: Wirral, Merseyside
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by VXR
quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
Nickasil isnt to aid running in procedures at all, its the coating put on the bores of alloy cylinder engines as its harder wearing than alloy. And lots of racers remove nickasil plating and fit steel sleeves as its cheaper in the long run as you cant re-bore nickasil it has to be plated again and its very expensive.
You old man studied old engines with old theories, nowadays things are much more high tech and the theory and practises are completely different. he can probably wave a spanner like nobodys business but as far as building a race winner goes hes not got the first clue.
What ive said is proven, both on the dyno, the reliability, the results they get and the condition of internals at rebuild. The engines are more powerful, less prone to failure, win more races and when they are taken apart you can see the rings have sealed properly.
And just to further more my point. Glen from GWR (reputedly one of the best engine builders in the world as hes sent engines from across the globe) who did all our blueprinting, balancing and headwork, who used to work for HRC as cheif engine technician reccomends a hard running in procedure.
Ill belive HRC experience and a world class reputation over somones dad who rebuilds engines on the living room floor.
Look at the power charts after 30,000 miles and tell me the thrashed at new engine produces great power still.... Now look the power chart of those run in easier.
Your theories are only good for RACE engines, not road engines. Two totally different ball games.
I'll put that MotoGp lump in mine and see if it starts every single morning, runs past 20,000 miles, without fail..............
Coating put inside the bores to aid the rings wearing in. And your right, it is expensive, but its diamond cut at MANUFACTURE not when re-building as you keep quoting.
And again, i'd seriously keep stumph about what you think my old man knows and does not know You presume to know so so much
PS, if your such an ace engine builder, why on earth are you sat on a boyracers car site when you should surley be working on preparing the engines for this years upcoming season????
Every engine builder I know hardly uses the tinternet forums as they generally are well paid, and have a much better quality of life, and at this moment, would be busy busy busy......
Pot and kettle
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jr
Member
Registered: 20th May 02
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
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if were talking about thrashing an engine from new or running it in PB did a back to back test, which has al; the answers
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jacko198
Member
Registered: 1st Mar 07
Location: Buckinghamshire
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben G
quote:
Originally posted by deano87
Bikes just don't do anything for me  unless it has no engine and goes offroad 
a poofy bike deano 
A proper bike more like!
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Daimo B
Member
Registered: 20th Mar 00
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom
Pot and kettle
I have NEVER claimed to be an ace engine builder, nor work in mechanics, but I know engines, and disagree with what he's saying for a road bike.
And I was a boyracer And don't have an ace paying job anymore
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jr
Member
Registered: 20th May 02
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
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PB tested a GSXR K7 (i think) back to back
Run one engine in, gave the other one shit from new
the one that was thrashed made more power, but had a tiny tiny bit more wear when taken apart and inspected after something like 5k-10k on the dyno
they summed it up by saying the wear was actully tiny tiny amounts, and not something that should be worried in the genral life of the engine considering the extra power it made
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Ojc
Member
Registered: 14th Nov 00
Location: Reading: Drives : Clio 197
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by VXR
quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
Really? even though aprilia have better build quality than any of the jap makers?
FINALLY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS SOMEONE WHO ISN'T BLIND IGNORANT.
Build quality is not reliability of a screaming 2 stoke engine.
Aprillia BUILD quality has always been good. Its the electrics that arn't, although thats fast becoming a thing of the past. Just like Fiat.
I actually agree with Dizzy, althoguh Honda lead the way with quality components with regards to jap engineering.
Electrics? WTF? Are we talking about a "91 Aprilia AF1?
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DizzyRebel
Member
Registered: 2nd Jan 09
Location: Lincoln
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by VXR
Look at the power charts after 30,000 miles and tell me the thrashed at new engine produces great power still.... Now look the power chart of those run in easier.
Your theories are only good for RACE engines, not road engines. Two totally different ball games.
I'll put that MotoGp lump in mine and see if it starts every single morning, runs past 20,000 miles, without fail..............
Coating put inside the bores to aid the rings wearing in. And your right, it is expensive, but its diamond cut at MANUFACTURE not when re-building as you keep quoting.
And again, i'd seriously keep stumph about what you think my old man knows and does not know You presume to know so so much
PS, if your such an ace engine builder, why on earth are you sat on a boyracers car site when you should surley be working on preparing the engines for this years upcoming season????
Every engine builder I know hardly uses the tinternet forums as they generally are well paid, and have a much better quality of life, and at this moment, would be busy busy busy......
They still create more power, we had 30,000 mile rsv's that were run in hard and still created the same power at 3,000 when they were first setup.
Its all to do with piston ring seal and thats it, if you get a good seal from the off then you wont have problems afterwards you can normally associate with engines that werent run in hard. Power and reliability go hand in hand... your still not reading my posts and taking them in.
Motogp engines are built to tolerances to run a specific amount of time and then be rebuilt. they are built to minimum structural requirements to save weight, to compare such a bespoke unit to a modified road engine isnt fair at all.
There is also no diamond cut coating at manufacture to aid running in, whoever told you that was having a right giggle.
I dont claim to know everything, but i do claim to know my job to the best of my abilities. And fyi the place i worked at went bust (good old credit crunch) so i have a lot of spare time on my hands and i can spend it as i wish, be it on here, visordown or afi racing forums.
Even glen from gwr uses afi and visordown forums.
You can try and pick at me all you want, but at the end of the day, i worked in the trade for 5 years, got a good rep and some good contacts and gained indespensable knowledge in the feild far superior to yours. You can claim to know this and that and keep making a fool out of yourself on here but the fact remains i did it and you didnt. End of.
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DizzyRebel
Member
Registered: 2nd Jan 09
Location: Lincoln
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
quote:
Originally posted by VXR
quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
quote:
Originally posted by DizzyRebel
Really? even though aprilia have better build quality than any of the jap makers?
FINALLY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS SOMEONE WHO ISN'T BLIND IGNORANT.
Build quality is not reliability of a screaming 2 stoke engine.
Aprillia BUILD quality has always been good. Its the electrics that arn't, although thats fast becoming a thing of the past. Just like Fiat.
I actually agree with Dizzy, althoguh Honda lead the way with quality components with regards to jap engineering.
Electrics? WTF? Are we talking about a "91 Aprilia AF1?
Lol, even the old AF1's loom wasnt far different from the RS125s of late.
Either way aprilias electrics are spot on, the only let downs are the starter solenoids on RSV's and in some rare cases the immobiliser units fuck up. Otherwise they are quite a good multiplex wiring system. Id rate aprilia build quality as maybe the best in the production market. The only thing that lets them down are the paint finishes.
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mikenoncorsa
Member
Registered: 27th Sep 06
Location: Worcester
User status: Offline
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Wow, maybe i shouldn't have posted pics. Either way, its my bike and i'll ride how i wish. When i say running it in, I don't mean pootling about at 3,000 rpm but i'm also not sat at the redline in every gear.
Plans are: Wheel stripes, CRG adjustable levers, smaller plate, akra/yoshi can, maybe relocate rear brake reserviour and lose rear foot rests. Oh, and ride it as much as i can.
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mikenoncorsa
Member
Registered: 27th Sep 06
Location: Worcester
User status: Offline
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And back to Pauls question concerning the R6, it was my first bike and at first it was absolutely savage but you get used to it. Upto 99 models were carb rather than injection. Never caused me any probs but get it setup properly if you get one. I was told to stay away from 99/00/01 bikes as they were shite, dunno how true that as. As with all bikes tho there are plenty of parts to adjust how they ride, levers, rearsets, shocks etc. I found the biek very comfortable despite the head down arse up position. Did 8k miles on it and apart form a dicky starter kill switch and a dead battery didn't have a problem, it's done 31k too.
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