JonnyJ
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I think we need a new topic here to get out of the England thread as i think its a very interesting topic and there is bound to be people with very different views on this.
Football has seen a massive change in recent years. The birth of the Premiership and Sky Sports has changed football in ways unimagineable in the early days. Money is being thrown at the top league and in particular the top clubs in crazy amounts as the popularity of english football grows world wide. They days of any clubs dream of being the best in the land seem to have gone and is now fought out by a very select group of teams. It seems a bit sad to me that the ultimate dream for some teams outside that select group is to finish 4th.
The money in the Premiership now also seems to have made a huge gap in between them and The Championship (and the divisions below). Teams who make it to the premiership now seem to just have the ambition of not spending too much, collecting the vast tv money and hoping they somehow survive and if not come back next year.
The knock on effect of the growth of the top teams has also affected the teams lower down. With football such a massive commercial enterprise now there seems to be a trend of supporters who will only support the successful teams instead of supporting their local team (which was pretty much always the way before). The reason maybe is because its seen as "uncool" to support a lower league team. I know i certainly got a few "Who the hell are York, why don't you support a good team?" jibes when i was growing up.
This of course means less money is coming into these clubs and recently there seems to have been a massive increase in clubs going out of business and into administration. Not only that but it seems no one bats an eyelid when a team goes under. How many Chelsea fans know that the team they played in the FA Cup a few years ago (Scarborough) now cease to exist? and the phoenix club AFC Scarborough play in Bridlington? Very few i imagine. For Scarborough also read Halifax Town & Telford. All gone in the last few seasons. Expect more this season with Lewes, Northwich, Grays all looking precarious. When i started going football clubs going under and into administration just didnt happen. I think Accrington were the last. Now it seems every season a club is deducted points or fails to make the end of the campaign.
Altrincham have finished in the relegation zone in the conference for 3 seasons running yet are still in the league due to clubs dropping out!
So is enough money getting through to clubs outside the premiership? I know a few people will think who cares about a few small clubs going under but if it continues to increase we could see grassroots and lower league football ceasing to exist, this surely will put people off wanting to get into football at all. After all its going to be difficult to break into the big teams first team when they can go out and spend £30m on top class players from abroad.
Its a complex topic and im sure people will have vastly different opinions but it will be very interesting to say the least.
There's much more i could put but i won't make it to work if i don't stop now 
Discuss
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Marc
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Can't blame people for not wanting to watch uninspiring, struggling football teams, theres no incentive for the fans/locals to part with their hard earnt cash. Some lower league teams need to accept where they are in the football pyramid and not spend beyond their needs/finances. At the same time you can't really begrudge the big teams that are dwarfing the smaller/lower league teams as they have built up their empires by being successful on and off the pitch.
As for not being aware of York City, at primary school York having a football team never even occured to me, class mates all supported United, Leeds, Arsenal, as it mainly is now with kids.
It wasn't until I started at my old job in 2006 that I was made aware that York still had a football team as two collegues were die hard fans!
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J da Silva
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Good thread Jonny!
I personally think it would be far more competitive if a team was limited to 10 foreigners and can only select 4 for the match day squad, it would be daft me saying just have 3 foreigners in the team as most teams have over 20, so 10 is more realistic.
But to go more 'on topic' it's obvious the lower league clubs don't have the funds as a luxury or Rotherham, Bournemouth and Luton wouldn't be deducted points for being skint.
I'm not really in the frame of mind to give a real good answer to your post Jonny I do apologise but one thing I will add, is you look at the Brazilian league standings of the last 10 years and you will find NO consistancy at all, which makes every season different and more exciting.
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J da Silva
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Can't blame people for not wanting to watch uninspiring, struggling football teams, theres no incentive for the fans/locals to part with their hard earnt cash. Some lower league teams need to accept where they are in the football pyramid and not spend beyond their needs/finances. At the same time you can't really begrudge the big teams that are dwarfing the smaller/lower league teams as they have built up their empires by being successful on and off the pitch.
As for not being aware of York City, at primary school York having a football team never even occured to me, class mates all supported United, Leeds, Arsenal, as it mainly is now with kids.
It wasn't until I started at my old job in 2006 that I was made aware that York still had a football team as two collegues were die hard fans!
I followed York with a great interest recently as my old manager and personal friend, Colin took charge for a bit, lovely man and a true gent.
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AndyKent
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What gets me is why the FA in their wisdom deduct points when you go into administration - talk about kicking you when you're down.
That link posted the other day had it right - the teams relegated should be those with the worst team, not the worst accountant 
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Marc
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Those with the worst team are generally those at the bottom!
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AndyKent
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Luton certainly wouldn't be bottom if they hadn't had the deduction, same with Bournemouth - they're killing teams off!
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by aPk
What gets me is why the FA in their wisdom deduct points when you go into administration - talk about kicking you when you're down.
Its to try and prevent people doing a Leeds, i.e. spending way above their means and taking stupid risks, declaring themselves bankrupt and then starting again. By knocking off points it makes starting again that much harder, and makes it more fair on the clubs around who have done things by the book and how they should.
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Cosmo
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IMO...
Football has always attracted stupid money, its just a little more obvious these days. Their is a reason why the top clubs have been top clubs for many many many years, and its not just because money has suddenly allowed them to buy the top players - its because they were successful many years back and are now reaping the rewards of that success and huge fan base created all those years back.
Look at United and Liverpool as prime examples. They made it big 30,40,50yrs back, got a big following which over the years has grown, have had good management, and are now two of the largest clubs in the world. Neither of them are suddenly big due to big bad Sky.
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Hammer
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The spread of wealth is lessening which will only serve to kill off lower league football, that's a fact.
The SPL is exactly the same, in the summer 1 in 3 professional footballers plying their trade will be placed on the dole. That's a fact that's been confirmed by the head of the PFA.
My own club can't buy anywhere near the level of player we used to because a) if ANY Premiership club comes in for the same player we cannot compete with wages and b) a large percentage would now rather play for a relegation struggling Premiership club than Celtic. In essence we're being forced to become almost a lower league club yet still being asked to compete in the Champions League, we are pretty much lambs to the slaughter.
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AndyKent
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by aPk
What gets me is why the FA in their wisdom deduct points when you go into administration - talk about kicking you when you're down.
Its to try and prevent people doing a Leeds, i.e. spending way above their means and taking stupid risks, declaring themselves bankrupt and then starting again. By knocking off points it makes starting again that much harder, and makes it more fair on the clubs around who have done things by the book and how they should.
Trouble is, like with Luton, the administration has completely changed since dodgy goings on were happening yet the new owners get a kicking whilst the first get away scott free with all the money.
Seems like the FA taking the easy way out, rather than sorting out the real issues.
That said, we're probably miles diverted from Jonnys post
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by aPk
Trouble is, like with Luton, the administration has completely changed since dodgy goings on were happening yet the new owners get a kicking whilst the first get away scott free with all the money.
But where do you draw the line?
The punishment is there to act as much as a deterrent to your previous owners as it is to the current ones. Its probably a huge reason why other clubs in the league dont go down the same route in an attempt to move up the leagues or make more profit.
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strick206
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aPK, yes the owners might be different, but the club is not, and it is the club that takes the point deductions not the owners
But i also agree that a 30 point deduction was fucking scandalous and i'd love to see them overcome it, although it's looking more and more like an impossible task now
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Danny P
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Depends which way you look at it. I'm quite traditional when it comes to Football, so I take quite a traditional view on things. IMO a football club should represent the city/town it hails from. It should be part of the community. Dads & lads should go down to watch the local team play, just like their dads did, and thier dads before that.
Thats how it was before Football became so accessible to everybody. Years ago there was no point in supporting a team that was 100 miles away as you'd never get to see them play on the TV, let alone live in the stadium. Since Football has been put on TV though, people can choose to support whoever they want, and when they are kids they are, on the whole, going to support whoever is at the top of the league. Wether this team is 5 miles down the road, or 300 miles down the M1.
Personally I cant see how these people feel part of the club they claim to support. To me a supporter is someone who is there to physically support the team, I cant see how you can do that sat in front of a TV. I cant see how you can feel a closeness to the club, I dont see how you can love, or claim to love something you've never even been a part of. Fair enough you can feed the club by buying the shirt, the hat, the scarf, the bed quilt, but what are you actually doing? You're not supporting the club, you just making the guy who runs the club a shed load of cash.
When Town win it means so much more to me when i'm actually there, than when i'm at home listerning on't radio becuase when i'm there I feel apart of the victory. I feel I have done my bit to help the team win. Sat at home I cant do that. Same when we lose. If i'm there I feel a lot more gutted, I feel apart of the loss and it takes me longer to get over it. If i'm at home I can just turn the radio off and try to forget about it.
This brings me onto what I was getting at in the England thread. It's all too easy for young kids to "support" teams like Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal etc as they are the best. Most just follow the others at School though so they dont get picked on (as Jonny mentioned above) for support a "rubbish" team. These kids dont have a clue about the history or traditions of the club they choose. All this is important IMO, the history is a part of the club, and therefore a part of you as a supporter.
All this stared in 1992 when Sky TV came into play. Before then you had MOTD, and the Cup Finals shown live each year. That was about it. Clubs had local players playing for them, because they couldn't afford to buy players. If they got lucky then they'd bring a few good players through & they'd do well. As soon as Sky started dishing out the money though these local lads who a few years ago might have made the first team have been cast aside for players that can be bought, and dont need any coaching as they are already proven.
Fooball is now a world wide game. The top clubs are not clubs anymore, they are brands, and they are set to exploit anyone & everyone in order to make the owners as much money as possible. The World Club Championship is a perfect example of this. Do you think Man Utd players wanted to trek half way round the world for a couple of games? I'm guessing no. But they are forced into it by FIFA, UEFA & The FA as it will "raise the profile of the club" & no doubt sell a few thousand shirts in the process. The folk buying these shirts will never step foot out of Japan, let alone attend a game in Manchester.
I dont really resent these clubs the money they get as such, they are good at what they do, and they deserve the money they get. It just angers me that while all these clubs are making millions, teams are going out of business for the sake of £100k. A sum of money certain players earn in just a few days. I'm not saying split the money evenly, becuase thats just not fair, but its up to the FA to look at things at work out a way that teams such as Halifax, Telford etc wont go under for a sake a few quid. Its for the good of the game that these clubs keep going. Without these clubs Football could go down the pan. Every club is important, however small.
Its also up The FA to keep an eye on clubs finances and make sure they arn't over spending. All clubs are guilty of over spending these days, even the likes of Man Utd, Liverpool & Chelsea. Why? Becuase being at the top is better than being financially secure. These clubs depend on money from TV so much that if Sky were to pull the plug, they'd be up shit creek without a paddle. Perfect example is Leeds. Champions League to League 1 in 5 years (I think) Nothing to do with miss-management on the field, but more miss-management off the field. Spent more than they had, had to sell best players for nothing like they are worth, and ended up with fuck all. Who suffers from this? Not the Chairman, he re-coups all his money and fucks off, while the fans are left to pick up the peices. The one's that were there long before Mr. Money Bags came in, and the ones that will be there long after he has left.
I've gone on a bit, and I dont even know if any of that relates to what the thread is about anymore  it's just my opinion on how things are at the moment.
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Marc
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny P
Do you think Man Utd players wanted to trek half way round the world for a couple of games? I'm guessing no. But they are forced into it by FIFA, UEFA & The FA as it will "raise the profile of the club" & no doubt sell a few thousand shirts in the process. The folk buying these shirts will never step foot out of Japan, let alone attend a game in Manchester.
Not the point you were trying to make I'm sure, but you'd be surprised at the amount of Eastern and American people you see at United games.
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J da Silva
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I have travelled the whole of my home country to watch Corinthians play, been to over 80 stadiums in my lifetime, my favourite football teams means a hell of a lot to me as I supported them from the first understanding of football and the house I was born into was exactly 134 yards from the Pacaembu Stadium, it was also a club that employed me as an apprentice player, so Corinthians will always be in my heart and although i live in the UK, I live stream every game possible even if it means me taking my laptop to work or cancel appointments with friends to view it, but what really does my head in is all these big clubs coming in and taking all our promising players, they go for the money and sit in the reserves most of the time.
A classic case is 'Willian', he would be in the Brazil national team now if he wasn't sat on Shahktar Donetsk' bench.
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny P
ears ago there was no point in supporting a team that was 100 miles away as you'd never get to see them play on the TV, let alone live in the stadium.
Rubbish. I have no doubt when Liverpool, Or United, or whoever, was at the top of their game many years back they had supporters all over the country, if not world. Certainly not to the numbers we do now, but in relation to the size of the whole football fanbase back then its probably a similar proportion.
quote:
Personally I cant see how these people feel part of the club they claim to support. To me a supporter is someone who is there to physically support the team, I cant see how you can do that sat in front of a TV. I cant see how you can feel a closeness to the club, I dont see how you can love, or claim to love something you've never even been a part of. Fair enough you can feed the club by buying the shirt, the hat, the scarf, the bed quilt, but what are you actually doing? You're not supporting the club, you just making the guy who runs the club a shed load of cash.
When Town win it means so much more to me when i'm actually there, than when i'm at home listerning on't radio becuase when i'm there I feel apart of the victory. I feel I have done my bit to help the team win. Sat at home I cant do that. Same when we lose. If i'm there I feel a lot more gutted, I feel apart of the loss and it takes me longer to get over it. If i'm at home I can just turn the radio off and try to forget about it.
Rubbish. Thousands of fans for all clubs have never been to see them play yet are as fanatical as you or me. And this isnt a new thing, this is going back years and years. Christ, Id say my Nan was a bigger Liverpool fan than me, but she hasnt seen Liverpool play in the actual ground for about 50yrs.
That to me is just a snobby type of football view, as in I go the ground so Im better than you kind of thing.
quote:
All this stared in 1992 when Sky TV came into play. Before then you had MOTD, and the Cup Finals shown live each year. That was about it. Clubs had local players playing for them, because they couldn't afford to buy players. If they got lucky then they'd bring a few good players through & they'd do well. As soon as Sky started dishing out the money though these local lads who a few years ago might have made the first team have been cast aside for players that can be bought, and dont need any coaching as they are already proven.
Completely un true.
Go and look at the great Liverpool teams of the past and how many of the top players are scousers? Keegan, Dalglish, Barnes, Rush, Hansen....even the managers - Shankley, Paisley?
And correct me if Im wrong, but these were way way way before Sky came about.
quote:
Fooball is now a world wide game. The top clubs are not clubs anymore, they are brands, and they are set to exploit anyone & everyone in order to make the owners as much money as possible.
Really? How many of their owners are walking away rich men? How many are making millions upon millions every year? Looking at the top four only, I think you'll find its NONE.
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strick206
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny P
Do you think Man Utd players wanted to trek half way round the world for a couple of games? I'm guessing no. But they are forced into it by FIFA, UEFA & The FA as it will "raise the profile of the club" & no doubt sell a few thousand shirts in the process. The folk buying these shirts will never step foot out of Japan, let alone attend a game in Manchester.
Fergie didn't want to go there either, but he had to for the clubs owners to help pay the debts, they got a hell of a lot of money for winning that tournament
Also, about United and being run in lots of debt, before those tossers came along, united where doing very well as a PLC and making good profits year on year, if united where still a PLC they wouldn't be in debt, it's just the fact that the club is so big and cost a fortune to buy, that once fully owned, the owners could pile the debt on the club
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strick206
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quote:
Originally posted by J da Silva
A classic case is 'Willian', he would be in the Brazil national team now if he wasn't sat on Shahktar Donetsk' bench.
Unfortunately that is one of the worse things, but no-one was stopping him waiting for a bigger and better club to come in for him
You only have to look at the 4 brazilians in the united squad at the minute, all fantastic players, and although Possebon doesn't get to play much ( it is hard when you have people like carrick/anderson in front of you, he still has a lot of potential
The twins are another case, both fantastic players and easily capable of playing every week in the next year or so
I think we will see Evra move up to left mid, with fabio behind him at some point
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Marc
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Also, my cousin went to Barcelona when he was a kid (about late 80's) he brought me and my brother back FC Barcelona ruck sacks and t-shirts.
Things like that can trigger support for a team.
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Cosmo
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I think for some youngsters, maybe especially for those in places such as Brazil, jump at any opportunity of getting to Europe and earning a good wage for a few years. For them its a case of weighing up if they actually think spending another year would mean more clubs coming in, or if passing that one opportunity by would be the last chance to get a good pay day.
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Marc
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Good point, for some playing in the European Cup shows they've made it. They'd never get that chance in South America.
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Marc
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I've just seen that York City have made the quarter finals of the FA Trophy, York will be filled with fans now!
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JonnyJ
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
The spread of wealth is lessening which will only serve to kill off lower league football, that's a fact.
The SPL is exactly the same, in the summer 1 in 3 professional footballers plying their trade will be placed on the dole. That's a fact that's been confirmed by the head of the PFA.
My own club can't buy anywhere near the level of player we used to because a) if ANY Premiership club comes in for the same player we cannot compete with wages and b) a large percentage would now rather play for a relegation struggling Premiership club than Celtic. In essence we're being forced to become almost a lower league club yet still being asked to compete in the Champions League, we are pretty much lambs to the slaughter.
I think Hammer has pretty much got at what i was trying to say with regards to this topic, lets not get too hung up on what makes you a fan and what doesn't.
The spread of wealth is most definitely what i was trying to point out was unfair and disproportionate.
There is more money in the top leagues of the english game than ever before, i think we can all agree on that. What i don't see happening though is that wealth being spread across the leagues fairly. Now, im not stupid, i don't expect York to get the same amount of tv money as a premiership side, that would be ridiculous but i think the gap in between what we get and what the top teams get is far too large. For instance, in the conference we get £5,000 for a home game on tv and £2,000 if your the away side. That barely covers the cost of the loss of fans who would rather stay at home in the warm and watch the game on tv, infact sometimes being on tv actually COSTS the club money. So whats the point in us even being on? Some might argue it raises our profile but i've not seen any extra fans through the gates so there is no upside for us, all being on tv means is less people in the stadium which means less atmosphere! Great.
Another thing that is an issue is the fact that there is so little money at our level that the FANS have to pay for us to have a reserve team and to keep the youth academy open! For the last 2 seasons we have had to hold chairty events, bucket collections raffles you name it just to make sure that our club can have some kind of youth development and at the level we are at and the lack of money we have to spend on wages and players the youth team is so so vital. This is where i think the FA could really help on in providing grants to small teams like us who have youth academys as it is helpful for the game all the way through the levels. This is the same youth academy that produced Jonathan Greening who made the club £1m being sold to Manchester United. The same youth academy that produced David Stockdale (now at Fulham) Graham Murty (Reading) Richard Cresswell (Leicester, Preston, Leeds) and many more. Why aren't the FA helping out small teams with things like this? Without these the production of future England stars is thrown into jeopardy. Kids aren't going to want to get into football if the second they are of Man U's books they have no hope in the game because if the money keeps draining out of the lower leagues this is where we will end up. The FA should be supporting youth academies like Yorks, instead, as ever, its left to the fans to pick up the pieces and thats not how it should be.
If football is a pyramid and the premiership is the prinicle that makes us the foundations and im sorry, in any strong business model its the foundations that need to be the strongest and at the moment it is severely weakened by a gap thats growing too fast.
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Nath
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by aPk
What gets me is why the FA in their wisdom deduct points when you go into administration - talk about kicking you when you're down.
Its to try and prevent people doing a Leeds, i.e. spending way above their means and taking stupid risks, declaring themselves bankrupt and then starting again. By knocking off points it makes starting again that much harder, and makes it more fair on the clubs around who have done things by the book and how they should.
Doesn't work.
Take us for example. They punished us by the same means, even though the guilty trio left weeks before. If we had the same owners who had done the dirty, then yeah, punish us/them. But something needs to change when new people are in place, and have to take on the burden on minus points, when it wasn't down to them. Yeah the new guys knew what they were taking on, but they presented a 170 page document to the FA and FL documenting our unique case. What happened? A more severe punishment then everybdy else!!!
The FL claim to be protecting the integrity of the Lague. Fuck off!!! The rules are shit and need to be changed.
I blame Leicester, they started this mess RE: points reduction.
[Edited on 13-02-2009 by Nath]
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