SetH
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Registered: 15th Jul 01
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Some members of Gen Alpha (born in the early 2010s) can barely walk, but it’s already set to be the most transformative generation yet. Alphas haven’t just grown up with technology—they’ve been completely immersed in it since birth. Early in their formative years, these children are comfortable speaking to voice assistants and swiping on smartphones. They don’t consider technologies to be tools used to help achieve tasks, but rather as deeply integrated parts of everyday life.
This actually scares the shit out of me, I am not sure why. All my nephews are Gen Alpha. Digital products from birth, these kids are the future
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Sam
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Registered: 24th Dec 99
Location: West Midlands
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I hear you.
My 7yr old knows how to navigate himself around a smartphone more than I do and I spent much of my working life in IT 
They use laptops well Chromebooks at school (year 3!) and I'm sure they are being taught the basics of programming as well!
I feel so fucking old
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Neo
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Registered: 20th Feb 07
Location: Essex
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I take on an apprentice every 18 months or so, and it's surprised me how many basic skills are sub par, such as using explorer, basic file management, using a keyboard and mouse (quickly) etc as well as the inability to write in full sentences that are grammatically correct. Every sentence or paragraph starts... "so...". When I've discussed their education and courses, all seemingly state that they loved "programming" or "coding", but know nothing of the OSI model, fundamentals of networking etc.
My 2 year old has a tablet, severely locked down with only suitable educational games installed, however she also has an old wireless keyboard in her toybox that she plays with, that I get her to show me the letters and press them for instance. I don't think she would struggle without these skills, and she'll probably be more understanding of the background of systems than many of her peers, however it's something that having witnessed first hand want to ensure she is capable of in the future.
It really is scary, and feel there is the potential for a large void in the industry - when we were young, to have an interest in tech meant you needed to actually get hands on, save the cash to buy the next upgrade etc which ultimately meant, come college, it was apparent quickly those with a passion vs those who thought it'd be an easy ride.
Now, there isn't that need to be truly passionate, everyone has a smart phone or tablet and the need to learn how to get xyz system working correctly by modifying packages or debugging issues for instance is no longer required - got to the app store, download, run. Instead, we will have a gaggle of people that are taught how to code in basic languages, yet seemingly lack the fundamentals.
There will be outliers, and perhaps this is a sign of the times, however I imagine in 15 years, there may be a real shortage of the basics.
[Edited on 11-02-2022 by Neo]
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SetH
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Registered: 15th Jul 01
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I think it could be a similar situation in engineering.
Take motorsport or tuning for example. Every joe bloggs is remapping a car via his laptop now, and people who have zero tech ability look upon them as wizards. However many of these guys are not trained engineers or mechanics, do not understand the mechanical fundamentals of engines. I'll take a trained motorsport mechanic/tuner and pay the extra versus a so called wiz kid Gen Z with his laptop and OBD dongles and googled information on knock and ignition timing etc 
Again fundamentals are not there.
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BarnshaW
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Registered: 25th Oct 06
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quote:
Originally posted by SetH
I think it could be a similar situation in engineering.
Take motorsport or tuning for example. Every joe bloggs is remapping a car via his laptop now, and people who have zero tech ability look upon them as wizards. However many of these guys are not trained engineers or mechanics, do not understand the mechanical fundamentals of engines. I'll take a trained motorsport mechanic/tuner and pay the extra versus a so called wiz kid Gen Z with his laptop and OBD dongles and googled information on knock and ignition timing etc
Again fundamentals are not there.
I agree with some of the above Seth but not necessarily the tuning/mapping argument
Gone are the days of needing to map cars on a dyno with det cans and spending half a day tweaking, the modern advancements and improved engineering on modern cars means that you can literally now self map you cars with trusted and tested OTS maps, its brilliant in some respect (example - BM3/MHD/MG Flasher platforms for BMW) , even JB4 style piggy back boxes are done and dusted now.
I think alot of "old school" people feel more comfortable in the older ways but with newer clever software the need for some of the older methods is gone (dyno mapping or on the road mapping etc), not sure if thats a good thing or not, great for users and ease of use but bad for the old school industry etc
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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To say that anyone can map a car themselves, ie. non-OE is to also say that manufacturers deliberately make things sub-optimal.
I had an discussion with a guy on Facebook this week about how mapping a Range Rover would make it better on fuel. Two things, you need to spend a lot of fuel to amortise 300 of expenditure on the map at a single figure percentage benefit and also how shit is the LR map to start with that some guy in his house can improve it.
Perhaps you are referencing the fact that its harder to blow an engine up because there are more safety loops in place now, but are we still saying BMW etc. prefer less power or have left some margin of longevity unused for fun?
Dyno and road mapping are only really so you can emulate load conditions and make sure you've not cocked it up, ultimately that's only maths and simulation and if you have a good model then you don't need to actually drive the car, you can simulate the combustion conditions and therefore predict if its going to knock its tits off before you commit the map. That still doesn't mean the team of highly trained professionals got it wrong.
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BarnshaW
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Registered: 25th Oct 06
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I never implied the above, I am saying that the increase in community based support has given the much better options of much safer and tried and tested OTS software
Even idiots like myself can safely map their own cars with proven and tested software, also gone are the days where if you need "tweaks" or adjustments you have to ring your mapper and book it in weeks ahead, theres far more live OTA support now from reputable tuners online
I cannot speak for all marques but certainly on the German car scene its incredibly easy to do basic stage 1/2 upgrades to your car with next to no mechanical knowledge, you need a cable, smart phone, WiFi connection and a dongle.
[Edited on 24-02-2022 by BarnshaW]
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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What are we saying here, its easy to flash the map or the map is better quality than OE
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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Also what is OTS
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BarnshaW
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Registered: 25th Oct 06
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OTS - Off the shelf
I am saying that if you compare even the last 5-10 years of car software modifying (mapping) that things have changed massively
Theres nothing to suggest the quality is any worse than OEM to my knowledge? many examples if improve MPG and performance and tens of thousands of cars running the software with no reported issues.
Maps are much easier to flash and the quality of available maps is much better and much more tested, a prime example might be that in the past if you wanted to check a log on your map you would take to tuner, they would check, they would make any adjustments on site, all takes time and a bit of effort,
Now you literally download your own logs, if you dont want to read them yourself or you can send them to someone in another country or a community page almost instantly and they can change, modify fix any issues and send it back within minutes, you then just flash it back on your car, its quite amazing to be fair and cuts out the need for any real physical visitation , also saves an immense amount of time.
Your earlier point about engines being more reliable and over engineered is helping too I imagine.
Also applies to car coding too, people are now readily coding their cars themselves with software through their phones very easily and safely, loads of things people can do themselves now, adding apple car play, screen mirroring, coding adaptive suspension out, TPMS removal, lighting and UI changes on the Nav ETC.
Also people are now very easily mapping gearbox software on their drive, XHP software etc can be downloaded on your phone in 5 mins and you can do it instantly, mapping your own gearbox software wasnt really even a thing 5 or 10 years ago to my knowledge, was always a specialist visit jobby.
I remember having a Subaru if you had a map it was say £400 and dyno visit, waiting around all day, then if you fitted an exhaust or new intercooler it was a call to your mapper, wait a few weeks to squeeze in, get workshop visit to fit said parts and then you paid another £100 for a map tweak, any cold start issues you were back again etc
Now you can buy a complete software of stage 1, stage 2 , stage 2+ packages and have them indefinitely, make changes whenever you want, have things like map changing on the fly, burbles on the fly, anti lag, torque by gear limiting all done by yourself with a dongle on a user friendly app. Its quite incredible how good it is now.
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Ian
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Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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quote:
Originally posted by BarnshaW
loads of things people can do themselves now, adding apple car play, screen mirroring, coding adaptive suspension out, TPMS removal, lighting and UI changes on the Nav ETC
Yes which is because the manufacturers intentionally leave stuff off so they can charge more for what is effectively software. Also not new - adding cruise to fly by wire Vauxhalls for the price of a stalk has been a thing for nearly 20 years.
My point was are manufactures intentionally selling cars with sub-optimal engine maps, we were talking about whether skills in engineering still exist or whether mapping has been dumbed down for mass market and you seem to be making the point that it has.
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BarnshaW
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Registered: 25th Oct 06
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not dumbed down but ease of access, easier to do and safer due to community based tested software
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tom130691
Premium Member
Registered: 13th Sep 08
Location: Daventry
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
Yes which is because the manufacturers intentionally leave stuff off so they can charge more for what is effectively software. Also not new - adding cruise to fly by wire Vauxhalls for the price of a stalk has been a thing for nearly 20 years.
My point was are manufactures intentionally selling cars with sub-optimal engine maps, we were talking about whether skills in engineering still exist or whether mapping has been dumbed down for mass market and you seem to be making the point that it has.
There is some level of leaving performance on the shelf for marketing purposes,
but everything is a compromise, whether that's durability, performance or emissions, with that there's lots to consider, different environmental conditions, loading conditions which have a knock on to cooling systems ect,
so yes there is often headroom but there's also good reason for it,
I'm always split on remaps.
Live/Dyno maps - that's great for one day one temperature, say its 20c what's that map going to perform like at 40c or -10?
Flash maps - at this point your gambling on what "tuner" has done the widest range of development, ie I put Revo on my fiesta, they have a global network or demonstrators, they have lesser peak numbers than others, but I believe them to have the best resources and safer.
[Edited on 21-04-2022 by tom130691]
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