Cosmo
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I have mentioned it in the past on here, but its close to going to market with a few massive international companies, and their website has got a lot more info on it than last time about how it works.
Its currently being developed as an add-on programme for logging into smartphones (they are in talks with Apple and Blackberry), as well as laptops, PDAs etc. Also a lot of banks (including the likes of Mastercard) talking about using it instead of the standard PIN code system and think its about to be trialled in a few smaller foreign countries by a few of them. Its also being used currently in a number of places as a pysical log in system, replacing the normal number PIN to enter doors, etc.
Read about how it works and see the demo here
Play the 'Brain Game' viral marketing tool here
Comments on it more than welcome!
EDIT - IGNORE THE TEXTING PART ON THE DEMO - that was in at request of a group of banks and isnt a specific part of this product!!
[Edited on 24-02-2009 by Cosmo]
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Brett
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This is the one your dad has invested in right? So basically you're trying to get some nice, easy and more importantly free market research on it before it launches? 
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James
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Owned.
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Brett
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Sounds like a decent enough idea tho. Video is hilarious when the "shoulder surfer" creeps in 
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Paul_J
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I was thinking ... fair enough - not a bad system when it was just symbols that moved about...
So essentially your password may be
5623 one time, and 7613 another time a the first and 3rd characters may of been symbols that had moved about...
but then, the fact you have to TEXT this to your bank is a pain in the arse.
The worst is that, it relies on you have a mobile phone and having it with you and having credit - to be able to access your own bank / information.
Plus the fact that the elederly are already useless with computers and this will only make things harder for them.
"John needs to complete a urgent bank transfer via the internet"
"At short notice he's found a internet cafe"
"Since he hasn't got his phone on him, he's fucked"
To be honest, most banks actually prevent people just looking at you type your details in by :
A ) the fact your account number is so long that for someone to memorise it just by looking at it briefly, would be quite hard.
B ) Generally there are many different passwords you may have to enter which change each time you log in (so the person may of watched you enter the wrong one)
C ) usually they have another pass phrase / code which you have to enter random positioned digits... (i.e. 1st, 3rd and 5th)...
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
but then, the fact you have to TEXT this to your bank is a pain in the arse.
That part isnt all the time, that was something a specific group of banks wanted implementing as is something they had been testing with another system already. As far as I am aware, this isnt something that would be present in the final version.
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by loafofbrett
This is the one your dad has invested in right? So basically you're trying to get some nice, easy and more importantly free market research on it before it launches?
Yes - although I didnt put my Dad owned a big chunck of it as otherwise I knew you'd be first to pick up on that too
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chris_uk
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im sorry i agree with paul 
its just a waste of time.
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Cosmo
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BTW - ignore the texting part of it. Its mainly the replacing the standard 4 digit pin with a mix of 4 numbers and symbols that continually move that will be released to market.
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chris_uk
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but still..
some people have a hard enough time remembering 4 digits.. never mind
teapot, 8, hairdryer, car
in honesty.. kudos to your dad trying to invest in something and make a little money.. but to me its an overly complicated procedure that just isnt needed.
if someone was to make an important bank transfer they would
a) go to the bank and not an internet cafe
or
b) do it at home
[Edited on 24-02-2009 by chris_uk]
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Paul_J
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One problem I could see, is that currently when I enter my pin on a keypad somewhere (I'm assuming it'd replace this, as I never enter my pin anywhere else)...
I'm able to type my pin in so fast and discretely that almost no one would see me enter anything.
However, if I have to stand there and press specific things it'd become quite obvious what my pin was.
For example...
People instantly know where numbers are, so if I watched someone 'Quickly' press a number, then I'd know, that part of their pin WAS a number... if I watch them delay looking for where the elephant or guitar is or whatever, then I know it'll be a symbol... As a result, I could still quite easily determine a short list of maybe 4 potential pins...
and when it's believed 'this is much more secure' - once I crack it, the potential devastation could be far worse.
No offence, but I don't get what it's for? In the example they show it's for logging in online for transactions, but I never have to enter my pin for my card online.
If you're talking about key pad style interfaces then they'd have to be touch screen for the objects to move about and may only confuse people who are a bit slow to find the symbols etc.
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
but still..
some people have a hard enough time remembering 4 digits.. never mind
teapot, 8, hairdryer, car
They have done a load of tests that shows remembering symbols in an order is just as easy as a 4 digit number - mainly because you can put a story behind it, such as a man has 8 teapots at home.
I do agree though, as at first I though replacing 4 numbers with symbols is a stupid idea, but given someone watching you put the code in wouldnt learn your pin, where as currently if I saw you put your pin in I would, it makes sense.
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
For example...
People instantly know where numbers are, so if I watched someone 'Quickly' press a number, then I'd know, that part of their pin WAS a number... if I watch them delay looking for where the elephant or guitar is or whatever, then I know it'll be a symbol... As a result, I could still quite easily determine a short list of maybe 4 potential pins...
I get what you are saying - but try the 'brain game' and you'll see how quickly it actually takes to find and press the various symbols. And that will be with you using the system for the first time, not a system you have used for 6 months+ and very used to.
Also, you say its easy to determine someones number, but surely its just as easy for anyone watching you type in a 4 digit pin that is very obvious what it is?
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Neo
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
People instantly know where numbers are, so if I watched someone 'Quickly' press a number, then I'd know, that part of their pin WAS a number... if I watch them delay looking for where the elephant or guitar is or whatever, then I know it'll be a symbol... As a result, I could still quite easily determine a short list of maybe 4 potential pins...
I think paul, the idea would be you look first, work it out in your head then type it fast, rather than type one, then look for the next.
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chris_uk
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where is this meant to be used?
cash mashine? or just internet banking?
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
in honesty.. kudos to your dad trying to invest in something and make a little money.. but to me its an overly complicated procedure that just isnt needed.
if someone was to make an important bank transfer they would
a) go to the bank and not an internet cafe
or
b) do it at home
Its not just for bank transfers, that was an example given
Its for anything from logging onto your PC, to using your credit card at a shop, to entering a secured area using a keypad.
As said, before you say its too difficult go and try the brain game, as entering the symbols is actually very easy and fast thing to do.
What you are thinking though is nothing I didnt think myself when I was first shown it!
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Paul_J
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Another problem is people with bad eye sight, or poor logical skills in the brain - who may not be able to determine which symbol is which...
Is that a dog or a cat?
People clicking wrong symbols by accident due to thinking 'ah there's the dog' and realising the dog was down the bottom and you just clicked a elephant.
However, I still don't get where this would be used? I wouldn't see this on normal keypads for pins as the symbols can't move about...
So if this is a completely new / different thing just for logging into online banking, it sounds like a completely NEW pin that I'd have to remember... one that I may not use for months and months and then get prompted when I do the rare thing of logging in online / paying online and then suddenly it's asking me for my pin.
I enter my normal pin I use at my bank and it denies me...
Sadly I've forgotten that my online only pin was Guitar, Monkey, 3, Car
I sadly couldn't make a good story about A monkey with 3 guitars in a car.
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John
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Major hurdle it has is that people don't like change.
It was a farce when we moved from signatures to PIN's and the PIN was something most people already used anyway.
Imagine trying to get them to remember something new.
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Paul_J
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
People instantly know where numbers are, so if I watched someone 'Quickly' press a number, then I'd know, that part of their pin WAS a number... if I watch them delay looking for where the elephant or guitar is or whatever, then I know it'll be a symbol... As a result, I could still quite easily determine a short list of maybe 4 potential pins...
I think paul, the idea would be you look first, work it out in your head then type it fast, rather than type one, then look for the next.
You ever seen elederly people use a keyboard mate ?
It's fine to have something that us 'youngens' can do quickly... but common sense of how it's used doesn't come in when the user is essentially thick / old.
I can imagine many a granny taking their time - in the same way they spend ages just looking for each letter as they type them into a keyboard...
'aaaaaaaaaahhh where's the O'...
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Paul_J
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quote:
Originally posted by John
Major hurdle it has is that people don't like change.
It was a farce when we moved from signatures to PIN's and the PIN was something most people already used anyway.
Imagine trying to get them to remember something new.
Exactly! I remember my mum going 'I don't even think my card has a pin' ... I said 'Don't you ever withdraw money from a ATM with your pin?' ... she went 'no, I usually just get money out from a bank' 
This is the same woman that when she goes to use her card online, gets prompted for some Visa Secure verification password, which she CAN NEVER REMEMBER... She entered it once, and forgets it by the time she actually uses the card online again (6 months + later) ...
I think she has all her passwords written down now... utterly defeating the point of any security.
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chris_uk
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rite i just did up to question 10 on that brain game thing
for each of the number ones i remembered it.. and put it in withing 1 second.. thats less that 1 second to enter my pin..
with the symbols one.. (and i was trying) 3 seconds was my lowest..
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
Another problem is people with bad eye sight, or poor logical skills in the brain - who may not be able to determine which symbol is which...
Is that a dog or a cat?
People clicking wrong symbols by accident due to thinking 'ah there's the dog' and realising the dog was down the bottom and you just clicked a elephant.
The symbols have (not sure if those are the actual ones on final products) been developed with a group of people from phycologists to designers, etc. as to make them more obvious. As when I first saw it (might be whats on the site) the symbols for a few things were very similar, plus they didnt want things like both a cup and bottle on there as people may mix up two items used for holding drinks, etc.
quote:
However, I still don't get where this would be used? I wouldn't see this on normal keypads for pins as the symbols can't move about...
So if this is a completely new / different thing just for logging into online banking, it sounds like a completely NEW pin that I'd have to remember... one that I may not use for months and months and then get prompted when I do the rare thing of logging in online / paying online and then suddenly it's asking me for my pin.
I enter my normal pin I use at my bank and it denies me...
Sadly I've forgotten that my online only pin was Guitar, Monkey, 3, Car
I sadly couldn't make a good story about A monkey with 3 guitars in a car.
You just did make up a good story
The people wanting to use it are for everywhere. The tech is there to replace pin machines with ones that allow for this sort of 'moveable' keypad and for them to be cheaply made (all part of this product). So it can be both physical such as in shops, or can be used online, or can be used on current PCs, smartphones, etc.
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chris_uk
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have you ever heard the term..
'if its broke dont fix it'
can you please tell me whats broke about the current system??
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
rite i just did up to question 10 on that brain game thing
for each of the number ones i remembered it.. and put it in withing 1 second.. thats less that 1 second to enter my pin..
with the symbols one.. (and i was trying) 3 seconds was my lowest..
So two seconds...one......two.
Hardly wasting your life away for the knowledge the guy behind hasnt just seen your pin and now off to empty your bank account
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
have you ever heard the term..
'if its broke dont fix it'
can you please tell me whats broke about the current system??
Have you seen the amount of credit card fraud?
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