Paul_J
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
Yeah, I see what you mean Paul, and thats certainly one part of it. But I think what I, and Robin (?) is getting at is more the reactions in the actual game play being more realistic depending on what the player does - irregardless of what their input device is. So if that be when the car spins out, what the braking would do in a certain area, what would happen after so many laps to the tyres, etc. etc.
Forza is a realatively 'arcadey' game.
The Forza developers could of made Forza ULTRA realistic. But they chose not to, not because they couldn't or didn't know how to, but because it has no use in a mass market racing game.
Sad fact is, the majority of people playing computer racing games want something mickey mouse, that makes them think it's realistic, but really is holding their hand and constantly helping them control their car. People think Forza's realistic 
Then you have the people who enjoy playing realistic sim / racing games, but the market is niche. Not large enough to make a lot of money from it.
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Robin
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I get the impression that it would be more about the dynamics than the actual input devide.
For example, on most (if not all, even now) car games, you can brake mid corner without the car sliding straight on, or spinning backwards in a ball of fire.
If the car spins when you brake in real life, why not on the game?
The market IS there for people who want a 'realistic' game, regardless of if they're using a keyboard, joystick, mouse, wheel or controller.
If some of the technology from a perfect simulator could be incorporated into the next gen games, they'd be even more popular than the current ones.
Think about it, being able to tweak suspension settings and it actually make a difference would completely change the way games are to play.
Even the most modern games (Forza 2 for example) aren't actually realistic, there's loads of room for improvement, and using technology from elsewhere can only serve to improve them.
This is what Formula one is about really, it always was the test bed for new technology (traction control, launch control, semi automatic gearboxes, ABS, electronic engine management, active suspension etc) and although this is different, it's still the same sort of idea.
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Robin
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
Then you have the people who enjoy playing realistic sim / racing games, but the market is niche. Not large enough to make a lot of money from it.
I don't agree with that, I'm sure there's a massive amount of people who either currently do play games, or would if they were more accurate.
Think about Flight Simulator, people have trained themselves to fly using that, and that's a pretty niche product at the end of the day.
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Cosmo
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And isnt realism eventually where the vast majority of these types of games are heading? Otherwise they are quickly going to saturate the market once everyone has their (or similar) product, so the only way to keep the brand going is to continually work on realism.
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Steve
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iv yet to experience any ultra-realistic 'game' on any platform.
it would be expensive and pointless unless you have a full hardware setup to go with it, including cockpit, clutch, brake, accelerator, gearbox, variable fan blowing your hair etc etc
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Robin
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I'm sure in 1997 you would have said Forza 2 would be pointless and you'd need loads of hardware to make it work.
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Paul_J
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
For example, on most (if not all, even now) car games, you can brake mid corner without the car sliding straight on, or spinning backwards in a ball of fire.
If the car spins when you brake in real life, why not on the game?
The market IS there for people who want a 'realistic' game, regardless of if they're using a keyboard, joystick, mouse, wheel or controller.
Even the most modern games (Forza 2 for example) aren't actually realistic, there's loads of room for improvement, and using technology from elsewhere can only serve to improve them.
Sorry Robin, but I'm gonna have to call you an idiot here.
The Forza 2 developers didn't make your car 'spin out' when you brake mid corner, because they couldn't achieve that level of realism. They did it because they know that the majority of players wouldn't be able to play that game / control the cars... thus it'd no longer be a mainstream game, it'd be for a niche market. and they wouldn't make much money.
There are loads of 'realistic' games out there, but they're made by smaller companies, who make the sim's to be as realistic as possible, not caring whether they sell a million copies or not.
Perfect example is live for speed.
www.liveforspeed.com - download this game! You will struggle to control it with keyboard or mouse (but it is slightly possible, tho impossible to really control a drift or anything that well) ... but this game simulates everything fine. For example you brake hard mid bend, you either lock wheels and skid straight on, or spin off... if you lift off mid corner, the back end comes around ... etc etc...
I can't believe you think the reason game's such as Forza, arn't more realistic because 'They can't create that level of realism'.
It's because They (or their share holders) want to make money... As a result they HAVE to design a game for a mass market. Therefore they have to dumb the game down...
This is what I'm saying about this F1 simulation technology... If released as software in it's realistic state - only few people would actually buy it....
If released in a dumbed down form, it defeats the whole point of using this technology.
Fuck it, Cosmo Listen to Robin, I guarentee it'll be the biggest mistake your dad will make investment wise.
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Steve
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gaming hardware inputs have hardly come anywhere since 1997, which is where the problem really lies
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Robin
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Look at the amount of people who use LFS then Paul, you've just completely contradicted yourself
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Steve
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i didnt find lfs any better than fm2.
you brake mid corner on fm2 you go straight on or spun out etc
neither games i would consider ultra realistic
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Robin
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And my argument isn't that they 'can't do it', but think about racing games of 10 years ago, how basic they were and how well they've progressed.
People expect more and more from games all the time, so racing games need to go somewhere, or they'll all be exactly the same as eachother and no-one will buy any of them anyway.
On Forza 2, you've got different levels of difficulty, does that mean that the game is crap because you can play a dumbed down version, or a harder version? No, so why would it if it was developed using decent software?
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Paul_J
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
Look at the amount of people who use LFS then Paul, you've just completely contradicted yourself
  no I haven't?
LFS = Realistic?
LFS = Hardly anyone plays it...
F1 Sim = Ultra Realistic
F1 Sim = Hardly anyone would use it...
Niche market.
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Steve
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gt5 is going to be yet another arcade affair
look at nfs pro street, god awful.
but they have to make games bearing in mind most people will be controlling 1 tonne lumps of metal with there thumb
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Robin
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What do you mean hardly anyone plays it? It's the most popular online racing game on the PC format.
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Cosmo
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BTW - this isnt some 6 month thing. This has a time line (if their investor pack is anything to go by) of about 4-5yrs, and involves not only developing the software but also commercially viable hardware.
Sounds like they are also looking to team up with technology partners for this, one big name was mentioned in the email that came with it (not sure if I was meant to see this  ) that already is the biggest (one of three!) games/hardware/console developers.
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Paul_J
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
i didnt find lfs any better than fm2.
you brake mid corner on fm2 you go straight on or spun out etc
neither games i would consider ultra realistic
Yeh but LFS isn't ultra realistic as you said, for the reason that the hardware is not feasible...
quote:
v yet to experience any ultra-realistic 'game' on any platform.
it would be expensive and pointless unless you have a full hardware setup to go with it, including cockpit, clutch, brake, accelerator, gearbox, variable fan blowing your hair etc etc
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Robin
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
Yeh but LFS isn't ultra realistic as you said, for the reason that the hardware is not feasible...
Currently.
I was playing on a 32bit console 10 years ago and it was the dogs bollocks. I wouldn't bother switching it on now.
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Paul_J
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
What do you mean hardly anyone plays it? It's the most popular online racing game on the PC format.
lol
quote:
LFS website:
Racer's online now 738
Not exactly mainstream
World of Warcraft - players online ... several million.
Though I think there's probably more players on PC playing GTR online, or Rfactor... etc. but there's not much choice.
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Paul_J
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
Yeh but LFS isn't ultra realistic as you said, for the reason that the hardware is not feasible...
Currently.
I was playing on a 32bit console 10 years ago and it was the dogs bollocks. I wouldn't bother switching it on now.
I was refereing to steve's quote, not the PC's hardware. The Periphels / controlling devices.
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Steve
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theres no point expecting ultra realistic sims on consoles or even pc's. it would need its own os inbuilt into dedicated hardware/controls
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
theres no point expecting ultra realistic sims on consoles or even pc's. it would need its own os inbuilt into dedicated hardware/controls
in 5-6yrs time though!!?
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Steve
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not even in 5-6 years as the control of choice will still be a hand held controller just like it was 10 years ago.
a proper sim will need its own purpose built control setup and noone is going to bother making that just for a console as the market wouldnt buy it.
look at what happened to virtual reality
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Paul_J
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Robin do you code at all?
I spend my life at uni doing software, and hopefully my future career.
The fact is, thing's are made to requirement... usually limited by cost.
It's not a case of 'I can't code that, it's too complicated' ... it's a case of 'To code that is going to cost a lot of time, do we really need it?'
If I was a publisher of a racing game, I'd be telling the developer to make a game that I could Sell Millions and millions of copies of. I as a developer would want to keep my costs as low as possible, while being able to sell millions of copies.
If I produced a wildly realistic simulation, that cost a lot of time (money) to produce, but appealed to a small market... my publisher would be upset and I would go bankrupt.
It's like having a boating sim, and simulating the water perfectly... You could do it spot on, but it wouldn't be worth it as most players wouldn't care.
Your example of flight sims isn't really valid either... The physics behind the flight sims probably haven't changed much... it's just the graphics have improved greatly over time and new 'features' and gameplay have been bolted on.
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Robin
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So controllers can't progress then?
I seem to remember my Playstation having on/off buttons on the controller, not pressure sensitive analogue ones.
I didn't imagine that Nintendo would use motion in a controller, but it's happened.
Just having a controller which you could hold up and use like a steering wheel would totally revolutionalise racing games.
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Paul_J
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
not even in 5-6 years as the control of choice will still be a hand held controller just like it was 10 years ago.
a proper sim will need its own purpose built control setup and noone is going to bother making that just for a console as the market wouldnt buy it.
look at what happened to virtual reality
Exactly! Perfect example of this whole post.
The reason we don't have 3d head set, super suits that'd allow us to run around the room playing games where we can feel / be in the game... is because it'd cost horrendous amounts of money... or be relatively shit, but still expensive.
People would need to buy the hardware to play, which would only appeal to niche market's who would want to.
The Wii suceeded in having a different control method, as the Wii unit was cheap and the control method came standard for it.
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