topshot_2k
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right heres one of many revews based around the PS3's memory etc.
For main memory, it looks like Cell has about 25GBps of main memory bandwidth, and RSX is about 15-20GBps. Achievable bandwidth is between about two thirds of that and nearly 100%, clearly the elves in the caves surrounding Rambus central did something right with XDR. That is the happy news.
For local memory, the measured vs theoretical bandwidth is missing, I wonder why? RSX is at a solid 22.4GBps for both read and write, good job there green team. Then comes the blue team with Cell. Local memory write is about 4GBps, 40% of the next slowest bandwidth there. Then comes the bomb from hell, the Cell local memory read bandwidth is a stunning 16MBps, note that is a capital M to connote Mega vs a capital G to connote Giga. This is a three order of magnitude oopsie, and it is an oopsie, as Sony put it "(no, this isn't a typo...)".
If you can write at 250x the read speed, it makes Cell local memory just about useless. That means you do all your work out of main memory, and the whole point of local is, well, pointless. This can lead to contention issues for the main memory bus, and all sorts of nightmarish to debug performance problems. Basically, if this Sony presentation to PS3 devs shown to us is correct, it looks like PS3 will be hobbled in a serious way.
The next slide goes on to say "Don't read from local memory, but write to main memory with RSX(tm) and read it from there instead", and repeats the table numbers. This is very very bad. The number of times the presentation goes on to say that it is correct, and the lack of anything like "this will be fixed by production steppings, so take measures X, Y and Z" say to me that it is not a fixable snafu. Remember at E3 when I said that the PS3 demos there were object sparse? Any guesses why?
Someone screwed up so badly it looks like it will relegate the console to second place behind the 360. All the devs I talked to were lukewarm on the 360 architecture but universally negative on the PS3. Revelations like this go a long way to explain why you keep hearing about simmering problems from the Sony devs.
You end up with a console with half the triangle setup rate of the 360, a crippled CPU that is a bitch to program, and tools that are atrocious compared to the 360. To make matters worse, you have an arrogant set of execs telling us that twice the price is worth it for half the power, a year late. If it isn't already too late, Sony had better do something about this recto-cranial inversion or it may very well sink the console.
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topshot_2k
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You end up with a console with half the triangle setup rate of the 360, a crippled CPU that is a bitch to program, and tools that are atrocious compared to the 360. To make matters worse, you have an arrogant set of execs telling us that twice the price is worth it for half the power, a year late.
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Steve
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its doesnt matter topshot, people will still say its better and worth twice as much because it has blu ray and can run linux
I like the way m$ have concentrated on making only a games console in the first instance then giving you the option of adding other stuff. It means the console itself for playing games will be more focussed on that task and not trying to be several other devices in one
[Edited on 20-03-2007 by Steve]
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topshot_2k
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 i wish i had money to waste 
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Greg_M
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quote:
Originally posted by topshot_2k
does running linux and web browsing not interest you Nath?
the old xbox could run linux
web browsing, why not just use a computer, and not try and convince yourself that brosing the intenet using a joy pad is cool
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topshot_2k
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i know, it was sarcastic i thinks it totally pointless, especially when the console has so many flaws
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topshot_2k
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
its doesnt matter topshot, people will still say its better and worth twice as much because it has blu ray and can run linux
I like the way m$ have concentrated on making only a games console in the first instance then giving you the option of adding other stuff. It means the console itself for playing games will be more focussed on that task and not trying to be several other devices in one
[Edited on 20-03-2007 by Steve]
agreed. What next freeview built in
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Greg_M
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Location: Grantham, Lincolnshire
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quote:
Originally posted by topshot_2k
You end up with a console with half the triangle setup rate of the 360, a crippled CPU that is a bitch to program, and tools that are atrocious compared to the 360. To make matters worse, you have an arrogant set of execs telling us that twice the price is worth it for half the power, a year late.
i heard it has VTEC
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Greg_M
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Location: Grantham, Lincolnshire
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quote:
Originally posted by topshot_2k
agreed. What next freeview built in
might aswell, most people will have to sell everything else they own to afford it
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topshot_2k
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg_M
quote:
Originally posted by topshot_2k
You end up with a console with half the triangle setup rate of the 360, a crippled CPU that is a bitch to program, and tools that are atrocious compared to the 360. To make matters worse, you have an arrogant set of execs telling us that twice the price is worth it for half the power, a year late.
i heard it has VTEC
it is true. 
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Marc
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Registered: 11th Aug 02
Location: York
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I like the way m$ have concentrated on making only a games console in the first instance
Like Nintendo have 
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Tim
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Registered: 21st Apr 00
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I'm not about to start arguing the finer points of the architectures, as anyone who knows anything about benchmarking will know you could quite easily swing this either way depdending on task.
We use both Cell based and FPGA vector engines at work for complex calc farms, and they completely obliterate any "general purpose" Power5/Opteron system we have -- what will be interesting is if anyone can actually write a game that will take advantage in some fashion. It is arguable whether it was a good idea to 'specialise' a game console in such a fashion, although if you get it right then job done.
It's unfair to compare the main system memory bus with the eDRAM bus -- they're two completely different architectures.
Also -- is there really a big price difference? Last I looked an Xbox 360 with a HDDVD drive wouldn't be that short of £400? Correct me if I'm wrong.
[Edited on 20-03-2007 by Tim]
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Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I like the way m$ have concentrated on making only a games console in the first instance
Like Nintendo have
indeed i think the wii is a genius console tbh, manages to keep a strong user base even though its not the best technically.
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Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
I'm not about to start arguing the finer points of the architectures, as anyone who knows anything about benchmarking will know you could quite easily swing this either way depdending on task.
We use both Cell based and FPGA vector engines at work for complex calc farms, and they completely obliterate any "general purpose" Power5/Opteron system we have -- what will be interesting is if anyone can actually write a game that will take advantage in some fashion. It is arguable whether it was a good idea to 'specialise' a game console in such a fashion, although if you get it right then job done.
It's unfair to compare the main system memory bus with the eDRAM bus -- they're two completely different architectures.
Also -- is there really a big price difference? Last I looked an Xbox 360 with a HDDVD drive wouldn't be that short of £400? Correct me if I'm wrong.
[Edited on 20-03-2007 by Tim]
i agree the cell processor is an excellent number crunching bit of kit, but i dont think it works well in a console especially a console that is flawed technically in many other areas.
its all well and good it being able to calculate all the floating points under the sun, but if its general throughput is lagging, its not going to make a great lot of difference
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Tim
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Yeah I think the Wii is proof that it's not just about the hardware performance.
Nintendo has always been like that though -- Gameboy/Advance/DS have always done better even though Atari, Sony, etc have made 'better' handhelds.
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topshot_2k
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
I'm not about to start arguing the finer points of the architectures, as anyone who knows anything about benchmarking will know you could quite easily swing this either way depdending on task.
We use both Cell based and FPGA vector engines at work for complex calc farms, and they completely obliterate any "general purpose" Power5/Opteron system we have -- what will be interesting is if anyone can actually write a game that will take advantage in some fashion. It is arguable whether it was a good idea to 'specialise' a game console in such a fashion, although if you get it right then job done.
It's unfair to compare the main system memory bus with the eDRAM bus -- they're two completely different architectures.
Also -- is there really a big price difference? Last I looked an Xbox 360 with a HDDVD drive wouldn't be that short of £400? Correct me if I'm wrong.
[Edited on 20-03-2007 by Tim]
but point is you get a choice. dont have to buy the HD DVD drive.
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Tim
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Yeah they were gonna pull the Bluray drive out the 20Gb version weren't they? But then decided it actually helped them push their own HD format?
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topshot_2k
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and also lost them alot of custom in the form of people who cant afford £450
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Marc
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People that are really in to gaming don't need crazy machines with capabilities they will never use though. The people that are championing the XBox's credentials are the very people that are in to pc's! I have 2 respectably specced pc's and a good dvd player. so all the extra benefits of the XBox/PS3 don't interest me. No doubting that all three are brilliant consoles and all offer cutting edge/fun games though.
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Steve
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 Ooooh marc, the drama
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topshot_2k
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call of duty, oblivian and TH8 are the only decent games on release and all are straight from the xbox
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mk4_astra
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anyone interested in reading how the 360 and ps3 compare in terms of performance then read here, its also worth noting that the stats are from actual consoles and not what certain companies might have said their console could do.
http://www.corsasport.co.uk/board/viewthread.php?tid=335472
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Rus
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Location: SE London, Kent
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quote:
Originally posted by topshot_2k
call of duty, oblivian and TH8 are the only decent games on release and all are straight from the xbox
no wonder your a bill gates fanboy, there all american games and there shit
cod3 is the same as cod, oblivian is wank and th8 has the worst level design.
this is all IMO of course
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