Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
my car goes 185 miles an hour...
have a look on vauxhalls website..
oh wait.. im not sure.. ill have a look at the unpublished brochure and since it was unpublished i dont know if i can give you the details..
Mate, thats fine. Im not asking you to beleive me.
If I legally cant show you them Im not going to, end of. Im not aiming to sell this product to you, you dont have the money to buy it. The companies that do are interested, and they'll of seen all the details after signing an NDA.
|
chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
|
you say banks..
so what at the end of the day you just need to put across 1 or 2 of your biased points to them they say oh yea lets do it..
i managed to sell advertising spaces on a website that no1 even knows about.. i managed to get them to go from yell.com to cityvisitor..
these slots were £500 a time.
what im saying is that its easy to get someone to do what you want or believe you, if you know what your on about (or sound like you do) and if you say to someone i will save you money of cause they will be interested.
this goes for banks, small businesses everyone.. as a bank is just a business after all they are there to make money
[Edited on 24-02-2009 by chris_uk]
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
you say banks..
so what at the end of the day you just need to put across 1 or 2 of your biased points to them they say oh yea lets do it..
i managed to sell advertising spaces on a website that no1 even knows about.. i managed to get them to go from yell.com to cityvisitor..
these slots were £500 a time.
what im saying is that its easy to get someone to do what you want or believe you, if you know what your on about (or sound like you do) and if you say to someone i will save you money of cause they will be interested.
No offence mate, but dont even try to compare you selling a £500 slot to this being sold to banks 
The banks have all signed NDA's, they have all the information behind the product, they have had their innovation teams (yeah, real departments amazingly) take apart the technology and run their own tests.
After all this, they have then decided to spend millions (not £500) on trialling it.
So a little different.
|
chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
|
yea prices are different but in principal its exactly the same..
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
yea prices are different but in principal its exactly the same..
No its not, principles change when people start spending millions mate - more care is taken over where it is going.
FPMSL some of your comments are amazing today
|
chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
|
in reality your dad has come up with a way to make getting your money a longer process and making it more of a ballache for fraudsters to get your money
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
in reality your dad has come up with a way to make getting your money a longer process and making it more of a ballache for fraudsters to get your money
No, he has invested in a company (didnt come up with it) that improves upon the currently questionable security where PIN or password systems are used, with a process that you said yourself only takes 2 seconds longer than a pin.
|
chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
|
but after reading the white papers the averave was 4 seconds longer and didnt include 8 people..
for what reason? maybe they were having trouble defining a elephant from a dog, maybe they had trouble finding the right symbol..
but whatever it was those 8 people did such a shit job at it they were not included.. and why? because it would of fucked up the average
|
James
Member
Registered: 1st Jun 02
Location: Surrey
User status: Offline
|
It's a good idea in theory but I can't see it taking off.
TBH Cosmo you are only backing it so much because your dad has money invested in it.
|
chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
|
either way some of them points could be improved on my making the symbols totally different from one another.. but i still would love to know why the 8 people were left out.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by James
It's a good idea in theory but I can't see it taking off.
TBH Cosmo you are only backing it so much because your dad has money invested in it.
Yes and no.
I did question it at first, before he invested and asked me what I thought, then after using it and reading about it I can see the benefits over a simple pin and dont think it takes much time at all over a pin or password.
But would I even be interested in reading about it if he hadnt invested - nope. Id of gladly just ignored it until the banks brought it out (if they did/do).
My defending of it, more so Chris as Paul does have valid points, are due to the stupidity of the points being made.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
but after reading the white papers the averave was 4 seconds longer and didnt include 8 people..
for what reason? maybe they were having trouble defining a elephant from a dog, maybe they had trouble finding the right symbol..
but whatever it was those 8 people did such a shit job at it they were not included.. and why? because it would of fucked up the average
Actually read it again, they took 20 tests from EACH OF the 28 people involved. Now I dont know if these were random or whatever, or the reason behind the selection on this number.
|
chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
|
when does this company expect to release this sytem to the general public?
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
either way some of them points could be improved on my making the symbols totally different from one another.. but i still would love to know why the 8 people were left out.
As Ive said earlier in the thread, I know at one of the last board meetings they were having better symbols designed with a view to making them more visually and mentally recognisable and much easier to differentiate between.
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
when does this company expect to release this sytem to the general public?
Up to the banks - they are trialling, or about to trial, in some smaller countries now.
Some security firms have bought and installed the units for door/building access replacing their current pin system. This includes it being installed at Gatwick in various places at the moment.
|
chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
|
jsut remember whats easier for the customer / user is also easier for the fraudster
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
jsut remember whats easier for the customer / user is also easier for the fraudster
so by that theory - using a PIN like at the moment is easier for the customer and also easier for the fraudster 
Are you now arguing against your own arguements?
|
Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
This just reminds me of the F1 Simulator software that'd be used for a commerical game investment idea 
In all seriousness, I'm like James. I can see how it works, it does give greater security that's not questioned, but I don't think in real term applications it'd be 100x security, plus the added hassle of a new system, getting people to adapt and re supplying new hardware EVERYWHERE to use symbols, I don't see it taking off.
The benefits don't seem to add up to the shear cost / effort to deploy such a new system.
I think it was in the white paper somewhere, the fact that I have a pin for my card that has symbols, but then I want to use my card over seas in Vietnam, where they don't have symbols... how can I use it?
Good in theory, but that's just it... In theory you can make anything sound fantastic (which I think was Chris's point about the selling adverts).
It's one of those idea's you go...
1. Ahh, hmm, wow that's different...
2. Nah this is too complex
3. Ah actually no it's quite easy I could adapt to it...
4. Ah yes this is great, so much more secure
5. Hmm, I've just had my card cloned and someone has taken my money how did that happen? oh right, it wasn't as secure as I thought.
Good in theory, but in practice there are slight problems which I've listed previously.
I wish you all the luck with it though Cosmo, if the banks are trialing it, then it's definately a step closer to becoming reality. Afterall it does give some greater security, however will it become reality around the world? Probably not.
|
Brett
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Dec 02
Location: Manchester
User status: Offline
|
Nice words of wisdom chris
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
This just reminds me of the F1 Simulator software that'd be used for a commerical game investment idea
That was never invested in. Was something I knew nothing about so asked about it on here - took what was said on board and didnt invest.
This however is something I do know about (as does every person who uses a PIN machine at the moment).
|
chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by loafofbrett
Nice words of wisdom chris
sounded good in theory but not in practise..
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
In all seriousness, I'm like James. I can see how it works, it does give greater security that's not questioned, but I don't think in real term applications it'd be 100x security, plus the added hassle of a new system, getting people to adapt and re supplying new hardware EVERYWHERE to use symbols, I don't see it taking off.
The benefits don't seem to add up to the shear cost / effort to deploy such a new system.
What exactly are the costs you're basing this on Paul? You have them to hand there for us all?
Also, surely the fact we went from sig to PIN shows how banks are more than willing to take on any new technologies that can save them the millions (billions worldwide) they spend on fraud payouts year on year?
quote:
I think it was in the white paper somewhere, the fact that I have a pin for my card that has symbols, but then I want to use my card over seas in Vietnam, where they don't have symbols... how can I use it?
Do they have PIN machines? If so then why wouldnt they get these new ones if they are more secure - infact if the banks take them on then they'll have no choice.
Dont forget, shops only lease the machines off the banks, they dont buy them so its no cost to
|
chris_uk
Premium Member
Registered: 8th Jul 03
User status: Offline
|
good luck 
|
Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
In all seriousness, I'm like James. I can see how it works, it does give greater security that's not questioned, but I don't think in real term applications it'd be 100x security, plus the added hassle of a new system, getting people to adapt and re supplying new hardware EVERYWHERE to use symbols, I don't see it taking off.
The benefits don't seem to add up to the shear cost / effort to deploy such a new system.
What exactly are the costs you're basing this on Paul? You have them to hand there for us all?
Also, surely the fact we went from sig to PIN shows how banks are more than willing to take on any new technologies that can save them the millions (billions worldwide) they spend on fraud payouts year on year?
Costs are a assumption, but having to change the whole infrastructure of every bank ATM, every person's Pin and every chip and pin machine is going to be costly.
When they moved from signing to chip and pin, we already had a pin number that we used on ATM's, so all you had to do was implement a new system just for entering the Pin in shops.
What your system requires, is everyone to get a brand new 'symbol' based pin, a device to show the symbol layout placed next to every current chip and pin based machine and all ATM's to have their software adjusted for it (around the world).
As such, I can see it being rolled out (if it does) as a 'extra' pin for certain applications, rather than a replacement pin for the one we rely on at the moment.
Finally, in response to your 'Well since we went from sig to chip and pin, and banks spent billions on that, surely they'll do the same for this tech'...
They spent billions on something that has proven to not be as secure and useful as they thought it'd be (chip and pin)... so will they want to make that mistake again by replacing it with something else that may prove to not be as secure and useful as originally thought (your system)
|
Cosmo
Member
Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: Im the real one!
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
Costs are a assumption, but having to change the whole infrastructure of every bank ATM, every person's Pin and every chip and pin machine is going to be costly.
When they moved from signing to chip and pin, we already had a pin number that we used on ATM's, so all you had to do was implement a new system just for entering the Pin in shops.
What your system requires, is everyone to get a brand new 'symbol' based pin, a device to show the symbol layout placed next to every current chip and pin based machine and all ATM's to have their software adjusted for it (around the world).
As such, I can see it being rolled out (if it does) as a 'extra' pin for certain applications, rather than a replacement pin for the one we rely on at the moment.
ATM's are easy, as its purely a software change. The software on ATMs is updated constantly with new security patches, etc. and Im guessing is remotely done - ie. not a big job at all.
Similar to using it online, its purely software and not a massive job to implement into current payment systems.
The biggest cost would be replacing current PIN machines. Now we've already had to replace ours in all of our shops a couple of times each to newer models - so depending on what the cost is for this new type of machine over a standard pin machine I dont think it would be too bad to implement.
You've got to remember, any cost to implement would be offset by the amount it would save from preventing fraud payouts. So Im sure thats what the banks are basing it on.
quote:
Finally, in response to your 'Well since we went from sig to chip and pin, and banks spent billions on that, surely they'll do the same for this tech'...
They spent billions on something that has proven to not be as secure and useful as they thought it'd be (chip and pin)... so will they want to make that mistake again by replacing it with something else that may prove to not be as secure and useful as originally thought (your system)
Banks knew the faults of PINs, but they had to implement something as the amount of fraud using just sigs was growing by a massive amount each year (likely down to more people using cards over cash/cheque).
As said, banks are actively seeking an alterntive to PINs. This item wasnt produced in the hope they could persuade a bank, it was produced due to banks asking for something better to be made.
|
